ADVERTISEMENT

CKK is incapable of fixing this

UNLV basketball's average attendance has been declining over the years.
Here's a breakdown of their per-game attendance numbers for the past 10 years.

2013-14: 13,125
2014-15: 11,757
2015-16: 11,542
2016-17: 10,120
2017-18: 10,093
2018-19: 8,639
2019-20: 8,218
20-21 and 21-22 weren't averaged due to covid
2022-23: 5,349
2023-24: 5,150

For reference 16-17 was MMs first year, and 17-18 was the first year for the Golden Knights.

IMO, CKK will never have a team with enough excitement to get back to even mid MM numbers. Sad.

Official : NIU to the Mountain West

In a vacuum it’s pretty easy to see that the teams going to the PAC in aggregate are way more valuable than the MW. And it’s easy to say that if we take all the valuable parts then we will all make more because we don’t have to share with the less valuable parts.

But there was a TON of hubris in thinking that was all there was to it. They’re finding this out now.

It’s like the PAC was a Lexus that got stripped for parts when everyone left and all WSU and OSU were left with was the body. Well they’ve got a bunch of money but not enough to replace the missing parts with Lexus parts, so they decide to strip the parts from the MWs Toyota Camry. Since Toyota makes Lexus they figure they can pass it off, but then they run out of money or piss off a supplier and now they’re just trying to cobble together a car that runs.

Gonna look great with those stock rims and tires off a 1997 Ford Ranger.

They, along with at least a few others in the conference could have said, “we’d really like to merge but we need a more equitable distribution for the “better brands”, and presented a solution to do that and the MW would have had to agree for fear of what is happening now.

It makes TOO much sense that that’s what SHOULD have happened, but this is when hubris and ego steps in, because to pull it off they would have needed UNLV and one other. But SomeboD(SU)y didn’t want that.

If it was JUST money then it would have gone another way.
I don't know, I think it is and always about the money.

Many here think that the MW is obviously "winning" because we have at least a whole conference right now and they do not.

But us adding teams that the PAC probably didn't really want isn't exactly "winning". Hell Texas State said no to us just because they thought the PAC might add them, and then the PAC pulled back.

It feels to me that the PAC is more concerned about the money than the MW. The PAC could have added many teams by now, but haven't ( like Texas State), because they really want to make the bottom line worth their while.

To be fair they are staring at 55 mil in poaching fees and any exit fee helped that they have pledged, so that plays a role.

But the whole idea that the PAC is at DEFCON 5 right now is likely off. For sure things didn't go to plan for them, that is obvious, but they sure aren't acting rash right now like they are panicking. It seems to me that they are taking their time to make sure they maximize their payouts. They also have some lawsuits too to be fair to think about.

We may not know how foolish this whole thing will be until everything is settled. If they end up with an 8 mil contract and the MW gets a 6 mil contract, they will look pretty dumb. If we end up with a 4 mil base contract and they have 10+, then we look dumb.

I just don't think we were sabotaged based off of spite. I think that idea makes people around here feel better about the situation, but the truth probably is UNLV was at best 5th place in terms of media valuation earlier this season. Simple as that.
  • Like
Reactions: RebelinWA

Official : NIU to the Mountain West

They just started counting OOH viewers in Neilsen about 4 years ago. However keep in mind it is totally imperfect and impossible to be accurate. Also if a bar is showing games on ESPN, they are also likely showing games on FS1, CBSS, CW, B10, SEC, etc. so whatever PPM models they are using to determine OOH viewers basically wash out for each network the same.
This is true, which is why the games on ESPNU are much less popular. And depending on the region not every bar may be playing the B10 Network, ACC, SEC, etc. But nearly every bar will have ESPN and ESPN2.

But comparing a AAC game on ESPNU to any game on ESPN2 be it a FCS game or otherwise, isn't telling the whole story.
  • Like
Reactions: LVRebel2000

Estimate for MWC media deal

Let me explain my numbers better.

First exit fees. I am basing on an assumption that the Exit fees will be 11 mil. I think that is a very safe assumption based off of all of the other exit fees that have have happened. And it is on the HIGH end based off of precedent. It would be similar to what the AAC detractors paid and I think that is a really good comp. But many of the other examples were significantly less. So I do think that the exit fees could easily be less than 11 mil per team.

Assuming that we get every last penny of the Poaching fees, that is where the lump sum of 14 mil came from. And 14 mil again is the MAX there.

Harper said the PAC was offering 6 mil in exit fee help. 11-6 is 5 mil. 5 mil + 14 is 19 mil. Meaning right off the bat there is a 19 million dollar swing when considering accepting a PAC invite vs staying in the MW. Going back to your point that we had to hire or extend a coach, which I agree with.

We may not have to pay that 5 mil up front as a lump sum, but for argument's sake let's go with that. 5 mil is a small enough number that makes sense anyway.

As for the MOA, again this is from UNLV

"According to a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) signed by President Whitfield, the Mountain West will pay an estimated lump sum of $10-to-14 million to UNLV in 2025, and also pay UNLV approximately $1.5-to-1.8 million annually over a six-year period beginning in July 2026. The new payments are on top of the current revenue streams from existing contracts and media assets. The current media deal expires in June 2026 and negotiations for a new media deal will begin in the near future. The university will also have the flexibility to explore future membership in an autonomous “Power Four” conference without penalty should the opportunity become available."

So UNLV will get an absolute maximum 24.8 million dollars total from staying in the league. According to this it could be as low as 19 mil total. But again this is before the lawsuits, so that could less. None of these numbers are guaranteed, notice the "approximately" "estimated". There were other numbers rumored, but I believe this is what it was settled at.

AS for the PAC I think they will easily get 4 mil more per school than the MW. I just can't see how they cannot. I hope I am wrong, but I believe they took our best 4, combined them with 2 that would be at least no worse than those top 4, added our current mean (USU) And we are left with the leftovers and our replacement schools at best make things no worse, and and at worse make our payouts worse.

I didn't include the other 9-10.8 million because I think there will be at least a 4 mil difference in the league AND hopefully we are not in the MW after 6 years anyway. But assuming we get the max payout and there will be a 4 mil difference our break even point would just after the 6 year mark. After that we would be making more money from just the base contract alone in the PAC.

But there are other factors. It is safe to say the new PAC will be getting more tournament credits. only 50% are shared, but each school could still be taking home more since they took 4 or our best 6 basketball schools.
So my numbers are based on the actual signed MOU:

Signed MOU

It spells out the percentages to be paid at each collection milestone, which are based on dollar amounts and not where the payments are coming from.

I also only accounted for the first $100 million, which is easily accounted for within the $110 million you think is reasonable to expect to collect.

You also HAVE to include all of the money to be paid out over the course of time based on the MOU and then you can account for speculative differences in media payments.

And yes, hopefully we’re not able to collect all of that money because we’re not in the MW in six years, but at that point it doesn’t matter and you still count it now.

I don’t think the PAC is going to get $4million more per year, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility, and they very well could. But even at that number, as you say, it takes a little more than six years to break even.

There are TOO many positives and negatives for both positions to factor in outside of just those simple “dollars and cents” points…

Yes, they’ll end up with more tournament credits and yes, they’ll have a better overall profile which probably equates to more money coming in.

I’d counter that this move enabled UNLV to continue to build on what was started with the football program, which will likely translate to greater attendance over the coming years and all the dollars that comes from that. It will also allow us to potentially “fix” UNLV basketball, which the right hire could do very quickly.

At the end of the day I think THE prudent decision was made to stay in the MW. Even if it doesn’t end up working out, I don’t believe you’ll be able to look back and say that wasn’t the case.

Maybe going to the PAC could be considered prudent as well, I think it’s less so, but I can see the argument.

And if we did I’d be talking all kinds of sh!t to Reno and UNM… but ultimately I think the right call was made.

Official : NIU to the Mountain West

I believe the MW is finished adding full programs. I suspect we might add a basketball or football only program for a partial share though.

I think UC Davis becomes full member in a few years.

SAC State is rumored to be nearing a decision on moving to FBS soon. I think it may be CUSA. PAC has stated they do not want FCS programs, although that could change. I wasn't a big proponent of SAC State as an addition..But I'm actually warming to the idea of it. Big market and you are planting another flag in PAC territory. Anything that messes with. them makes me happy..

My guess SAC State to CUSA. NDSU FB only to MWC. Either Texas State or North Texas to PAC.

Official : NIU to the Mountain West

In the media space, we actually struggle with computing viewership based on commercial accounts (bars). Sure, a Buffalo Wild wings might have a packed house for a game. But which game are the people watching? Do you weigh each bar the same? What about a random hole in the wall bar with 3 people who have the game on for noise?
Exactly. I actually was on front end of OOH media in the early 2000s with Clubcom(gyms) and Ideacast(planes). Everything is a guess based on potential eyeballs per visitor volume. Some people are watching some TVs, other people are watching other TVs. Some people don't watch at all.

Official : NIU to the Mountain West

In the media space, we actually struggle with computing viewership based on commercial accounts (bars). Sure, a Buffalo Wild wings might have a packed house for a game. But which game are the people watching? Do you weigh each bar the same? What about a random hole in the wall bar with 3 people who have the game on for noise?
Thats my point about why adding schools in certain markets although not the premier school or even second school for that market, they're are still eyeballs in that market that watch and places that tune in for those TV ad sales in windows that arent traditionally filled by the MWC.

Kevin

There is no way that we know for sure this is the case!
Everyone always says this tired old narrative.

He has figured out how to hire football coaches and I believe he can find the right former HC for hoops and whoever that might be, he won’t cost as much as many of the Rebel-net naysayers think!
Sounds like we’re reaching the same conclusion from different angles.
  • Like
Reactions: LVRebel2000

Official : NIU to the Mountain West

They just started counting OOH viewers in Neilsen about 4 years ago. However keep in mind it is totally imperfect and impossible to be accurate. Also if a bar is showing games on ESPN, they are also likely showing games on FS1, CBSS, CW, B10, SEC, etc. so whatever PPM models they are using to determine OOH viewers basically wash out for each network the same.
In the media space, we actually struggle with computing viewership based on commercial accounts (bars). Sure, a Buffalo Wild wings might have a packed house for a game. But which game are the people watching? Do you weigh each bar the same? What about a random hole in the wall bar with 3 people who have the game on for noise?

Official : NIU to the Mountain West

PAC will get to 8 teams. WE all know that.

We will have a better what everyone is worth within the next 2 years. We are all just guessing.

But lets say this. Assuming that all MW are basically the same with a small delta in worth. Why would the PAC run far, far away from the idea of a merger? If that were the case, the payout of a merged conference would be about the same as creating their own conference. It would also cost zero fees, it would have been likely a reverse merger, they would keep the PAC name, most of their "war chest" and they would have solidified the best G5 conference.

Could it be, that the delta within the mountain west is pretty big. They knew their worth from their partners and realized it was worth all of the exorbitant up front costs to create a new conference? Sharing with the doldrums of the MW would be too much to take?

Follow the money. That is what this is all about, it always has been, it always will.
In a vacuum it’s pretty easy to see that the teams going to the PAC in aggregate are way more valuable than the MW. And it’s easy to say that if we take all the valuable parts then we will all make more because we don’t have to share with the less valuable parts.

But there was a TON of hubris in thinking that was all there was to it. They’re finding this out now.

It’s like the PAC was a Lexus that got stripped for parts when everyone left and all WSU and OSU were left with was the body. Well they’ve got a bunch of money but not enough to replace the missing parts with Lexus parts, so they decide to strip the parts from the MWs Toyota Camry. Since Toyota makes Lexus they figure they can pass it off, but then they run out of money or piss off a supplier and now they’re just trying to cobble together a car that runs.

Gonna look great with those stock rims and tires off a 1997 Ford Ranger.

They, along with at least a few others in the conference could have said, “we’d really like to merge but we need a more equitable distribution for the “better brands”, and presented a solution to do that and the MW would have had to agree for fear of what is happening now.

It makes TOO much sense that that’s what SHOULD have happened, but this is when hubris and ego steps in, because to pull it off they would have needed UNLV and one other. But SomeboD(SU)y didn’t want that.

If it was JUST money then it would have gone another way.

Official : NIU to the Mountain West

IT was the 5th least watched game on that channel all year long. Out of 70+ games. ESPN gets numbers by default, because it is on in every Sports Bar in the coutnry.
They just started counting OOH viewers in Neilsen about 4 years ago. However keep in mind it is totally imperfect and impossible to be accurate. Also if a bar is showing games on ESPN, they are also likely showing games on FS1, CBSS, CW, B10, SEC, etc. so whatever PPM models they are using to determine OOH viewers basically wash out for each network the same.
  • Like
Reactions: RebelinWA

Official : NIU to the Mountain West

Not typically no. But earlier in the year NDSU VS South Dakota State (I think) was on ESPN 2 (Again I think) and did very well for a regular season game.

@RebelinWA had the numbers for that game.
IT was the 5th least watched game on that channel all year long. Out of 70+ games. ESPN gets numbers by default, because it is on in every Sports Bar in the coutnry.

Official : NIU to the Mountain West

They had 250 million or so reasons... MWC didn't want the Pac 12 brand and if they lost the conference they lose all the money... the lawsuit settlement doesn't just give them all the cash, it gives them control of it but if the conference fails to be a conference, the money then gets split back to everyone..
So yeah, there's probably a delta, probably be bigger had Memphis and Tulane jumped, will ot be astronomical, no, but the 2 currently voting members are getting buckets of cash to maintain the conference and pay out amongst themselves that's why they didn't just merge...
Perhaps, but that is definitely negotiable.

There is an argument that legacy funds stay with legacy members, hell the MW is doing that right now with bonuses the the legacy members. If we did a reverse merger, the rest of the member wouldn't automically have a claim to those funds.

I do think that was likely a part of the contention that prevented a merger though.

I don't think that the MW care about losing their brand. If they did, they are stupid. The PAC is a better brand.

I
ADVERTISEMENT

Filter

ADVERTISEMENT