Pac-12 Rebuild Update...

[dcut03]

New Mexico is 48 in market size, Las Vegas is 40th. CSU is 88th. FSU is 55th in market size. WSU tv market size would include King County and eastern Washington so it is big because of alumni size. WSU lawsuit vs Pac12 paid the costs of buying teams. It looks like according to Seattle papers, UNLV, AF, Texas State, and one more Texas school for expansion in the next four. Of course, ACC blow up would change everything. New Pac would have to have at least 12 teams to be competitive in NCAA seeding. New Mexico could sneak in but low average salary in New Mexico doesn't attract big dollar advertisers. My opinion is Big12 with a reduced share of revenue or a share of visitor ticket sales at Allegiant. Clark County has too much money invested in highways, bussing, casino's to blow off UNLV even though Tulane is facing the same obstacles of pro sport competition. Pro Sports revenue is an issue for even a NBA expansion team. Only so many dollars for leisure and UNLV would have a competitive advantage in basketball with Big12 teams because of ticket pricing.

You simply cannot look at the city for "market" when it come to college sports. Especially state schools. CSU has at least part of the Denver market, as well as the rest of the state.

Honestly media markets themselves are starting to be a bit more inconsequential. It is ratings, period. With TV being so stream heavy and college sports not being relegated to market only side channels, it is all about ratings and eyeballs. It is a little different in pro sports, because the model there is having region specific channels to show local games, but that doesn't really exist in college sports.

What matters is how many people watch the games, in person yes, but mostly on TV. I would imagine that there is a strong correlation there.

 

[SilverSpoon]

I swear if this boils down to UNLV having to take their red headed step-child, we will never be a serious candidate for the B12. It's already a stretch as it is. This needs to be fixed and fast.

 

[Mojo702]

This is literally the definition of cutting of your nose to spite your face.

😃 I just wrote that in the other thread

 

[dcut03]

This article is a must read. It explains exactly why we didn't go. There are 13 regents. The university presidents work directly for that board. If only five ( or perhaps three/four ) of them vehemently oppose UNLV moving to another conference without Reno the president would be hesitant to go to war with them.

I don't know if one Reno -loving Regent's short sighted opinion had much to do with this. Bottom line, no one wants UNR and Reno. If they are holding back UNLV from getting more funds it is hurting the State school system.

Sure they don't want to be left behind. And they have to say that publically. But I doubt that the Regents were able to stop anything

 

[Mojo702]

Yeah, wtf man! If Regents representing Clark County feel this way it’s going to be difficult for UNLV to do anything. Trying to force the PAC-12 into taking UNR too is stupid.

“It would be very difficult for UNLV to make a move into another conference without UNR because that should be a package deal,” he said. “And then the financial obligations that these campuses have in moving from one conference to another … I’m not sure that UNLV and UNR are in a place to spend that kind of money to move into another conference.”

While Brooks acknowledged that there is a separation of sports success between UNLV and UNR, he said it wouldn’t be practical for the state’s “largest institutions” to play in separate conferences.

You have got to be shitting me. That's like not wanting to collect your lottery winnings because you have to pay taxes on it. The Regents of Nevada's "largest institutions" will live to regret this package deal idiocy.

 

[reagan21]

Wouldn’t the board still have to approve the move? Maybe I’m just jaded. The board of regents did UNLV dirty for decades.

No.

 

[Bullmastiff 1]

We can sit here and cry about it or we can flood these clowns with exquisitely crafted emails.

Current Regents – NSHE Board of Regents

nshe.nevada.edu

 

[Masked_rebel]

He's saying neither school has the money...
That only works if the conference doesn't implode over the next year, it only will take 1 more program jumping elsewhere to do it... After that it's free game.

 

[dcut03]

He's saying neither school has the money...
That only works if the conference doesn't implode over the next year, it only will take 1 more program jumping elsewhere to do it... After that it's free game.

Doesn't have the money?

That makes no sense. The PAC is helping pay off if not completely paying off the exit fees. Even if you prorate the payback. Doubling or tripling media revenue is worth taking in the initial costs anyway.

Its BS.

 

[WarthogRebel]

You walk up to a lake and two people are drowning. There is only one life preserver to throw so you can save only one person. The Nevada regents are in favor of being fair, not throwing the life preserver to either of them and letting them both drown.

 

[unlove]

the school from Reno isn’t holding up unlv at all in terms of moving to another conference.

Apparently board of regents see it differently

 

[Rosegreen1]

oklahoma left Oklahoma state in the wind with the SEC move, even when Oklahoma legislature had rules/law it. They just left.

I don’t see any facts, other than political posturing.

 

[BluBronc]

UNLV was not in the initial discussions.

But

From what I understand SDSU turned down Big12 original offer. I want to say it had to do with the lower revenue/TV share they would receive.

If UNLV gets same offer you 100% take that offer.

SDSU did not turn down Big12.

Bronco Fan/Donor here and keep your heads up. The PAC will more than likely go 9 teams. You guys are not dead in the water.
There will be more discussions and movement in the next 90 days.

 

[BluBronc]

This is from Dellenger.

"However, politics are at play. According to those with knowledge of the discussions, separating the two — the University of Nevada and UNLV — is a hurdle. It doesn’t mean it cannot be done. And, perhaps at a later date, they could eventually move together to the Pac-12. Or the hurdle is crossed and UNLV moves alone?"

 

[Vegas_Sooner21]

UNT makes even less sense than not adding UNLV other than the fact it’s in Texas. TCU pretty much owns the Ft. Worth area

OU, Texas, and Aggie fans dominate the Dallas/Ft Worth market. UNT is beyond irrelevant. A school like UNT getting an invite over us is ****ing embarrassing.

 

[1Tripoda]

I think the PAC have moved on.

 

[Meister_Rebel]

I just got back from a fishing trip and come into this shyt. WTF.

So did the BOR just fck us or what? They need to be run out of the state. They should all go to hell.

 

[Masked_rebel]

Doesn't have the money?

That makes no sense. The PAC is helping pay off if not completely paying off the exit fees. Even if you prorate the payback. Doubling or tripling media revenue is worth taking in the initial costs anyway.

Its BS.

and yet there is no media deal in place that guarantees that. The current 4 that left got their fees covered. Thats not guaranteed for the other 2 or more that leave to join. So if the ask was to pay even 5-6 million dollars towards the departure fees as part of the second round of adds to avoid being part of any lawsuit over the agreement to prevent the poaching, a BOR member isnt going to advise spending tax payer dollars to do that.
There's a lot of money numbers being thrown around between exit fees or payouts to each program, lost revenue that has to go to that payout etc. and the BORs all get wishy washy over burning $$ with election cycles coming up before the potential for revenue increases in the future. That's why having your athletics programs tied to politicians is stupid.

 

[reagan21]

and yet there is no media deal in place that guarantees that. The current 4 that left got their fees covered. Thats not guaranteed for the other 2 or more that leave to join. So if the ask was to pay even 5-6 million dollars towards the departure fees as part of the second round of adds to avoid being part of any lawsuit over the agreement to prevent the poaching, a BOR member isnt going to advise spending tax payer dollars to do that.
There's a lot of money numbers being thrown around between exit fees or payouts to each program, lost revenue that has to go to that payout etc. and the BORs all get wishy washy over burning $$ with election cycles coming up before the potential for revenue increases in the future. That's why having your athletics programs tied to politicians is stupid.

or you let the MWC burn to the ground where there is no conference to require an exit fee.

 

[Meister_Rebel]

or you let the MWC burn to the ground where there is no conference to require an exit fee.

Gloria is just going to bring NMState, Utep, and some FCS teams. The MWC won't die easy but, it will be reduced to ash. We need to pay our exit fee and get the fck out. We need to move quick to try and jump to the AAC before the Six Pac takes their good schools. If we can move with AF quickly we may be able to hang on to some of those AAC schools.

The MWC is somewhere we don't want to be in a year or two. Only fools would stay.

 

[Masked_rebel]

Gloria is just going to bring NMState, Utep, and some FCS teams. The MWC won't die easy but, it will be reduced to ash. We need to pay our exit fee and get the fck out. We need to move quick to try and jump to the AAC before the Six Pac takes their good schools. If we can move with AF quickly we may be able to hang on to some of those AAC schools.

The MWC is somewhere we don't want to be in a year or two. Only fools would stay.

Depends on what the "Pac" is hearing for their media rights.. what if fighting for a larger payout and dominating the new version of the MWC is the ticket to a bigger payday like say the Big 12 in 5 years... honestly the "Pac" isn't a power conference and I can't see how they can convince anyone that they're worth more than the current MWC deal is. And with the CFP format as it stands, we could easily turn into a powerhouse in multiple sports, getting the national attention and attraction needed to get a bigger fish... just saying, is jumping laterally any better than staying put and dominating while asking for a larger cut as the clear jewel of the new conference?

 

[dcut03]

I just got back from a fishing trip and come into this shyt. WTF.

So did the BOR just fck us or what? They need to be run out of the state. They should all go to hell.

Depends on what the "Pac" is hearing for their media rights.. what if fighting for a larger payout and dominating the new version of the MWC is the ticket to a bigger payday like say the Big 12 in 5 years... honestly the "Pac" isn't a power conference and I can't see how they can convince anyone that they're worth more than the current MWC deal is. And with the CFP format as it stands, we could easily turn into a powerhouse in multiple sports, getting the national attention and attraction needed to get a bigger fish... just saying, is jumping laterally any better than staying put and dominating while asking for a larger cut as the clear jewel of the new conference?

They know what their deal will be. They work this out ahead of time. These realignment decisions are not made blindly. And you can bet your ass it will be significantly better than what the MW is getting currently. Especially considering Boise jumped at the opportunity and they currently get more than every MW team.
There is dead weight in the MW it severely drives the payouts down. This is what stalled the merger/reverse merger IMO. The MW wanted to "stay united" and the PAC 2 didn't want leave money on the table.
OSU and WAZZU still have strong followings I would imagine that both of those schools are probably worth more in terms of media rights compares to probably every current MW team.
They just took perhaps the 4 best teams in terms of media. They may have replaced UNLV with another because of other reasons. But now I am not so sure. Since I have seen some of the paltry ratings that UNLV has done, maybe not.

 

[Meister_Rebel]

Depends on what the "Pac" is hearing for their media rights.. what if fighting for a larger payout and dominating the new version of the MWC is the ticket to a bigger payday like say the Big 12 in 5 years... honestly the "Pac" isn't a power conference and I can't see how they can convince anyone that they're worth more than the current MWC deal is. And with the CFP format as it stands, we could easily turn into a powerhouse in multiple sports, getting the national attention and attraction needed to get a bigger fish... just saying, is jumping laterally any better than staying put and dominating while asking for a larger cut as the clear jewel of the new conference?

I don't believe for one second the MWC in it's next media contract will earn what we are earning today. More than likely we will be a million or less per year per school. The AAC is paying better and has a longer term contract. If they offer us 7 million why would we stay for 1 million. The PAC don't want us the Big12 is a pipe dream. We need to follow the money. The MWC is going to be worthless real soon. There won't be much attraction for student athletes. AF and UNLV need to at least try to get to what will be a better option than staying in a drowning conference.

 

[TimothyC3]

Even Nevada Sports Net recognized what happened and admits that it's UNR. From today:

* THE BIGGEST LOSERS here are UNLV and Air Force, two legitimate candidates who were bypassed. The Falcons are one of the other MW schools that have been vocal about looking for a conference upgrade. Now, it's stuck in a watered-down MW, at least for now. As for UNLV, I would have invited the Rebels before Colorado State or Fresno State given the media market, the brand, the facilities and the ascending football program that is coming off its first MW title game appearance.

* UNLV'S LINK TO NEVADA appears to have been a major reason the Rebels aren't a new Pac-12 member. Some among of the Nevada Board of Regents are desirous of keeping Nevada and UNLV in the same conference, which could keep the Rebels out of the Pac-12. UNLV is a much more attractive candidate than Nevada, and if the Regents really keep the Rebels out of the Pac-12 based on that, shame on them. Historically, Nevada and UNLV have rarely been in the same conference.

* NEVADA'S ONLY WAY of getting into the Pac-12 appears to be on the back of UNLV. Even the most ardent Pack supporters (and those in the athletic department) aren't under thedelusion Nevada has earned a spot in the new Pac-12 on merit. Nevada's case is based on potential and men's basketball. But with a small media market, a football program that's done almost nothing in its MW era and a below-average budget, jumping on UNLV's back as a package deal might be the only way in.

Link: https://nevadasportsnet.com/news/re...ac-12-poaching-four-mw-schools-and-whats-next

 

[Meister_Rebel]

Even Nevada Sports Net recognized what happened and admits that it's UNR. From today:

* THE BIGGEST LOSERS here are UNLV and Air Force, two legitimate candidates who were bypassed. The Falcons are one of the other MW schools that have been vocal about looking for a conference upgrade. Now, it's stuck in a watered-down MW, at least for now. As for UNLV, I would have invited the Rebels before Colorado State or Fresno State given the media market, the brand, the facilities and the ascending football program that is coming off its first MW title game appearance.

* UNLV'S LINK TO NEVADA appears to have been a major reason the Rebels aren't a new Pac-12 member. Some among of the Nevada Board of Regents are desirous of keeping Nevada and UNLV in the same conference, which could keep the Rebels out of the Pac-12. UNLV is a much more attractive candidate than Nevada, and if the Regents really keep the Rebels out of the Pac-12 based on that, shame on them. Historically, Nevada and UNLV have rarely been in the same conference.

* NEVADA'S ONLY WAY of getting into the Pac-12 appears to be on the back of UNLV. Even the most ardent Pack supporters (and those in the athletic department) aren't under thedelusion Nevada has earned a spot in the new Pac-12 on merit. Nevada's case is based on potential and men's basketball. But with a small media market, a football program that's done almost nothing in its MW era and a below-average budget, jumping on UNLV's back as a package deal might be the only way in.

Link: https://nevadasportsnet.com/news/re...ac-12-poaching-four-mw-schools-and-whats-next

Staying shackled to reno is our death penalty. Whitfield needs to get with AF and get us to the AAC if they will take us. Whitfield can do this. He just needs to realize it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission when it comes to dealing with the BOR.

AF and UNLV need to leave together while we still have some value.

Thanks for that article.

 

[j. spilotro]

Staying shackled to reno is our death penalty. Whitfield needs to get with AF and get us to the AAC if they will take us. Whitfield can do this. He just needs to realize it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission when it comes to dealing with the BOR.

AF and UNLV need to leave together while we still have some value.

Thanks for that article.

Then again, UNR would love to have the importance. So they may be claiming such as some weird as little sister flex.

 

[LVRebel2000]

At this point, unless UNLV has very strong assurances of getting into the Big 12 sooner rather than later (I doubt this is the case) I think UNLV needs to bite the bullet and jump ship, assuming the PAC would take them. From what I've read, UNLV is wanted, but the UNR situation muddied the waters, so we got passed over in round 1. The remnants of the MWC aren't going to be good quality, so I'm sure the media contract will be greatly reduced in value when the current one expires. Less money equals no money for coaches, and further drop towards irrelevance.

Worst case scenario if UNLV goes to the PAC is that the new PAC doesn't qualify as part of the Power 3/4 conferences. But even if that's the case, it's still much better than the remnants of the MWC

 

[WarthogRebel]

At this point, unless UNLV has very strong assurances of getting into the Big 12 sooner rather than later (I doubt this is the case) I think UNLV needs to bite the bullet and jump ship, assuming the PAC would take them. From what I've read, UNLV is wanted, but the UNR situation muddied the waters, so we got passed over in round 1. The remnants of the MWC aren't going to be good quality, so I'm sure the media contract will be greatly reduced in value when the current one expires. Less money equals no money for coaches, and further drop towards irrelevance.

Worst case scenario if UNLV goes to the PAC is that the new PAC doesn't qualify as part of the Power 3/4 conferences. But even if that's the case, it's still much better than the remnants of the MWC

If they don't pay our way how do we afford it now?

 

[Meister_Rebel]

If they don't pay our way how do we afford it now?

They may have to dip into the endowment fund. We would have to pay it back but, if we don't act soon we will become irrelevant. We have to keep Odom and we need to continue to grow. The MWC is dead and any sign of growth is in the rear view mirror.

 

[WarthogRebel]

They may have to dip into the endowment fund. We would have to pay it back but, if we don't act soon we will become irrelevant. We have to keep Odom and we need to continue to grow. The MWC is dead and any sign of growth is in the rear view mirror.

Wouldn't that take regent approval?? If so - forget it.

 

[LVRebel2000]

If they don't pay our way how do we afford it now?

You need to find a way. Maybe OSU/WSU would still help subsidize it, even if it were just a loan.

How much money will UNLV lose annually if they drift further into obscurity? Let's look at how the decisions with basketball have affected money.

At the end of Krugers time, and early Rice days, UNLV was getting way more butts in seats at Rebel games.

In 2012, UNLV had 283,130 fans at the home basketball games, which averages out to 15,729/game.
Last year, UNLV had 87,227 fans at home games (T&M only) over 14 games, for 6,230/game.

That's a difference of almost 9,500 people per game over the course of the season, and almost 200,000 total difference.

So if the cost of a ticket, parking, and food/beverage is even something low like $40 per person per game, UNLV lost $8,000,000 just in basketball alone (PER YEAR) between 2012 and 2024.

Decision have consequences, one way or the other. Let's hope they make the right decision here

 

[Meister_Rebel]

Wouldn't that take regent approval?? If so - forget it.

I don't know. You could be right. I do remember when UNLV took 50 million dollars from the endowment to buy the property across from the T&M.

 

[Meister_Rebel]

You need to find a way. Maybe OSU/WSU would still help subsidize it, even if it were just a loan.

How much money will UNLV lose annually if they drift further into obscurity? Let's look at how the decisions with basketball have affected money.

At the end of Krugers time, and early Rice days, UNLV was getting way more butts in seats at Rebel games.

In 2012, UNLV had 283,130 fans at the home basketball games, which averages out to 15,729/game.
Last year, UNLV had 87,227 fans at home games (T&M only) over 14 games, for 6,230/game.

That's a difference of almost 9,500 people per game over the course of the season, and almost 200,000 total difference.

So if the cost of a ticket, parking, and food/beverage is even something low like $40 per person per game, UNLV lost $8,000,000 just in basketball alone between 2012 and 2024.

Decision have consequences, one way or the other. Let's hope they make the right decision here

My compliments. That was well said.

 

[LVRebel2000]

My compliments. That was well said.

And that is just in one year, for one sport. So now, with football making this same jump in notoriety with Odom, we could easily get up to where we're averaging 30,000 fans per game. And that could go much higher if we started getting in the top 25 regularly. If UNLV goes back to obscurity in football, averaging 8k fans per game, we'd be in line to lose another $6,000,000 per year in football annually, not including any media deals or merchandise sales.

 

[WarthogRebel]

They may have to dip into the endowment fund. We would have to pay it back but, if we don't act soon we will become irrelevant. We have to keep Odom and we need to continue to grow. The MWC is dead and any sign of growth is in the rear view mirror.

Per Regent Brooks.

“And then the financial obligations that these campuses have in moving from one conference to another … I’m not sure that UNLV and UNR are in a place to spend that kind of money to move into another conference.”

And he wasn't on board when it cost us ZERO money.

 

[LVRebel2000]

And that is just in one year, for one sport. So now, with football making this same jump in notoriety with Odom, we could easily get up to where we're averaging 30,000 fans per game. And that could go much higher if we started getting in the top 25 regularly. If UNLV goes back to obscurity in football, averaging 8k fans per game, we'd be in line to lose another $6,000,000 per year in football annually, not including any media deals or merchandise sales.

If UNLV committed to getting basketball back to the days of Rice, and kept rolling with Odom, the school should easily be able to bring in an extra $10,000,000 annually. Is that not good for the school and the state?

 

[Meister_Rebel]

If UNLV committed to getting basketball back to the days of Rice, and kept rolling with Odom, the school should easily be able to bring in an extra $10,000,000 annually. Is that not good for the school and the state?

The way you lay it out just infuriates me knowing that our athletic department, to me, seems to have given up on basketball.

 

[LVRebel2000]

The way you lay it out just infuriates me knowing that our athletic department, to me, seems to have given up on basketball.

Me too. It's been painful to watch over the years, and I'm sure even more so for Joe and others that were around back in the Tark years. That was before my time at UNLV. The idea that you have to spend money to make money is definitely true in a lot of ways for college sports. Spending money is no guarantee that you'll make money, but if you are afraid to spend on a proven coach who can bring in players/fans/etc, then you are missing out on a huge opportunity.

 

[Masked_rebel]

Per Regent Brooks.

“And then the financial obligations that these campuses have in moving from one conference to another … I’m not sure that UNLV and UNR are in a place to spend that kind of money to move into another conference.”

And he wasn't on board when it cost us ZERO money.

This is why you should never have sports programs coupled with politics... Hes up for re-election at the end of the conference contract (I think his election cycle is 2026?) and doesnt want to have any opponent use his role as the chair of financial investments advocating on using "18 million dollars in tax payer funds" to benefit on UNLV.

 

[Rod_the_Rebel]

Get rid of the regents