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Interesting conversation guys. I need to do a spreadsheet or something to figure out all these teams and their affiliations. What league is UTEP in? What about New Mexico State? and on and on.
As I argue on my home Coug board, I just want us to stay out West. These "markets" as you go East - do they reallly matter? C'mon, like it or not, the big SEC, etc. schools rule the TV.
Just stay out West. get the Pac-14/16 going, we are the only thing going west of the Rockies (+/- Wyoming , AF and CSU)
Edit - I refer to them only because they are all East of the Rockies. Not that wanted to exclude them.
As I argue on my home Coug board, I just want us to stay out West. These "markets" as you go East - do they reallly matter? C'mon, like it or not, the big SEC, etc. schools rule the TV.
Just stay out West. get the Pac-14/16 going, we are the only thing going west of the Rockies (+/- Wyoming , AF and CSU)
Edit - I refer to them only because they are all East of the Rockies. Not that wanted to exclude them.
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I would stop at Fresno. Everything after that is dead weight in terms of media value imo.
I just don't see the media value. Those are just schools that take more of our media dollars.
While I agree with what you said what other schools do you add? I know the PAC only has to have 8 schools to remain a conference, imo, they have to get to 12 to be considered relevant with the other conference expanding to 16+ teams.
This is all just hypothetical but, I say just stay with the 8 until some future realignment takes place. More than likely the ACC will get gutted. If they end up with 8 teams then perhaps it becomes more realistic to merge the ACC with the PAC. A Eastern/Western conference. That should have more value than bloating a PAC with dead weight.
Realistically, we are going to a reverse merger. It's not my preference but, there may not be any other choice. The exit fees are going to keep us down and the sad thing is we did it to ourselves. The dead weight will never agree to folding the conference and let us free. We are hostages because we can't buy ourselves out of this.
OSU and Wazzu get to divides $500millions between them? Cha-f8cking Ching$$$$$
We don't know that yet, but I don't think it will be anywhere close to that.
The Commissioner's office seems incapable of coming up with any tangible financial information. Assets, liabilities, etc. After months.
As a lifetime accountant, this is just frying my gourd. We used to do monthly financial statements. It is not that tough. After Quackkoff gets fired, we need to fire every so-called accountant in that office.
After that Comcast debacle I know the PAC fired the CFO and others. The new CFO doesn't seem up to the task. You have to wonder if there is more they are keeping under their hat. It's crazy they can't come up with those financial statements. It's not rocket science.
Yeah it is complete BS. Every employee at the Pac-2 office had better get their shit and loyalties together before Gloria takes the helm. Although I imagine that she will clean house anyway.
I've suggested to my Wazzu Watch buddies that they should drop by here - you guys have some great chatter. But so far no takers. We are a bit inbred over there, other than me.
You must have told them how we refer to your school as Wassu, WaStUn, or some other acronym/nickname.
No I didn't share that.
Guess you guys will have to come our way. Meister comes over frequently.
I have read a fair number of people want New Mexico State and get rid of some of the other teams in the MWC. Why would we want a school that averaged under 12K in attendance for the past 5 years with an average of 14,993 in 2022. one year doesn't change this program, while it makes a huge difference for UNLV. The reason is they have lousy attendance, bad facilities and a small market, while UNLV has great facilities, a large market, and has shown a significant improvement in attendance over the last few years. Interesting that New Mexico attendance is almost as bad as that of New Mexico State, so why would we want two schools from a small market?
I do understand why SJSU is questionable due to an average 5 year attendance of 12,304 and a 2022 attendance of 16,422 as well fighting with schools like Stanford for relevance.
As for Hawaii, UNLV has a long history of playing Hawaii, Hawaii brings a large crowd to UNLV games, and any team that goes to play in Hawaii is allowed an additional game to offset the cost. As for attendance in Hawaii, that all depends on their ability to build a new stadium, which appears to be stuck in bureaucracy.
If we are looking at schools in Texas, UTEP (19,134 2022)has an attendance that is above that of Rice (19,011 2022). In 2023 Rice averaged around 20K. As for UTEP attendance in 2023, it makes no sense with them averaging around 30K for the first few games of the season and around 10K for the last few games of the season?
I do understand why SJSU is questionable due to an average 5 year attendance of 12,304 and a 2022 attendance of 16,422 as well fighting with schools like Stanford for relevance.
As for Hawaii, UNLV has a long history of playing Hawaii, Hawaii brings a large crowd to UNLV games, and any team that goes to play in Hawaii is allowed an additional game to offset the cost. As for attendance in Hawaii, that all depends on their ability to build a new stadium, which appears to be stuck in bureaucracy.
If we are looking at schools in Texas, UTEP (19,134 2022)has an attendance that is above that of Rice (19,011 2022). In 2023 Rice averaged around 20K. As for UTEP attendance in 2023, it makes no sense with them averaging around 30K for the first few games of the season and around 10K for the last few games of the season?
Think UTSA average over 26k and play in the Alamo dome. Good market in Texas. Up and coming program would make the most sense and get rid of Hawaii. Can revaluation Hawaii once there new football stadium is completed.
Seeing some rumors going around on X about remaining PAC2 schools joining a merger with the Big12 and ACC. Basically, you'd have a nationwide conference that could be split into 2, 3, or even 4 different zones, depending on how they wanted to structure it. If that were to happen, I'm not sure that UNLV would be in the picture.
I might have missed it but I don't think anybody is making that case?
I can see a scenario of dropping UNM definitely. But not for NMSU.
I think if there was thought of going to 14 or 16 teams and you keep UNM, then one of the additions that would make some sense would be NMSU. As small of a market as New Mexico is, you'd have it locked up.
If it's just a 12 team league I think there are better options out there than UNM.
I'd make a push for UTSA to replace UNM completely.
My only argument for NMSU is if we're looking at 14 or 16 teams and your keeping UNM.
With 12 no.
Living in Houston, Rice has a very, very small group of the market share. Being private and expensive, not nearly the local draw as University of Houston. It's probably UT/A&M 1a/1b, maybe Houston 2, though that is debatable. Then it is Tech/Baylor, then OU then maybe Rice?
I personally would love to add Rice, but it doesn't make as much sense. UTSA #1, UTEP #2 in terms of available Texas schools.
Yeah all three are a small fish in a big pond.
Of the three I'd like to see UTSA.
I wouldn't add UTEP just for the sake of adding teams.
Same reason I wouldn't add NMSU unless you are keeping UNM.
Let's say they tried to go 14 teams.
WSU
OREGON STATE
FROM MWC
FRESNO STATE
SJSU
SDSU
BOISE STATE
WYOMING
CSU
USU
UNLV
RENO
AFA
OUTSIDE
UTSA
RICE
I do not believe any case can be made to bring in NMSU. With the exception of this year, they really have done nothing, and the only reason they are better than NM is that NM has dropped so far down in athletics! With a total state population of 2 million, taking both teams will do nothing for any future TV contract. It is also a very good reason for arguments that have been made regarding unr. The only reason to keep unr is because UNLV already is required to play them every year which would prevent us from losing an out of conference game.
One of the issues with splitting up the MWC so that only the top teams go to a new Pac is that this would most likely make it impossible for the current commissioner of the MWC to go to the PAC as the new commissioner. Since her job is working with the MWC, any move that didn't include all teams would without a doubt include lawsuits if she went to the MWC. It would be a huge conflict of interest for her not working for all the teams in the MWC.
The Pac2 will hire Gloria ASAP. The MWC Presidents will go into a panic and then we should see things heat up real fast.
I 100% get your point.
Definitely not alone. In regards to NMSU.
Only if you're keeping UNM and looking to expand. Even then iffy.
Personally I think UNM and Hawaii could be out.
Travel for Hawaii is a financial drain. And they would be football only.
I'd prefer going after UTSA, Rice, North Texas possibly UTEP.
But only reason I would bring in UTEP would be if you were looking to get 4 teams in Texas market. If you can grab UTSA, North Texas and Rice might make sense to grab UTEP as well. Otherwise pass.
Some people look at USU and say why keep them.
I think you keep them because Utah is regional, and MWC schools recruit there. I don't think you want to completely leave that region as small as USU's share might be.
Kinda like SJSU, I think you try and keep as many teams in California as you can.
Not advocating for NMSU at all, more the only reason you would possibly go get them is if you are keeping UNM.
Definitely not on their own. There are better options available for sure.
If you don't have NMSU I really don't see any reason to keep UNM other than basketball, but I think football is the driving factor here.
It will all come down to what can get the most people to turn on TVs.
If UNLV didn't have the TV market it has and wasn't coming off a really good season, probably some people arguing why add them based on our history.
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Locking down both NMSU and UNM seems a bit redundant. Small state where UNM has the better market and probably more of a name. NMSU had a better football year, but still. Much more potential at UNM which brings a stronger Bball program.
I really don't see why a new PAC would "need" more than 8 teams to be legitimate. Especially when adding teams just to add them would decrease the per team payout. Even moreso if they don't add anything competitively.
SJSU is in a good market, but very poor penetration. I'm sure the TV partners know exactly what they bring in terms of eyeballs. I can see them being left out for that reason. Their attendance is low and general has poor fan support.
However, the PAC wants probably as many Cali schools as they can, so they may keep them in for that. But there is also the issue where of what happens if the ACC gets blown up and losing power status. Do the 2 NoCal smarty pants schools try to come crawling back? It is very possible. You definitely don't want all 3.
USU is a distant 3rd fiddle in a state with 3.4 million people in it? Not sure of their revenue value, but at least they have been pretty competitive in both sports.
I really don't see why a new PAC would "need" more than 8 teams to be legitimate. Especially when adding teams just to add them would decrease the per team payout. Even moreso if they don't add anything competitively.
SJSU is in a good market, but very poor penetration. I'm sure the TV partners know exactly what they bring in terms of eyeballs. I can see them being left out for that reason. Their attendance is low and general has poor fan support.
However, the PAC wants probably as many Cali schools as they can, so they may keep them in for that. But there is also the issue where of what happens if the ACC gets blown up and losing power status. Do the 2 NoCal smarty pants schools try to come crawling back? It is very possible. You definitely don't want all 3.
USU is a distant 3rd fiddle in a state with 3.4 million people in it? Not sure of their revenue value, but at least they have been pretty competitive in both sports.
USU is really interesting. Definitely small market all around. But Utah is a state recruited by a number of MWC schools. I don't know if you want to box yourself out of that market completely? I don't know.
I think you do everything possible to stay in as much of California market as you can. That's why you keep SJSU.
New Mexico is such a small market. UNM and NMSU really aren't going to pull big numbers. But what views they do get you could lock up by having both. NMSU would be way down the list of possible additions. And UNM would be pretty high on list of teams to likely be left behind. So for me it's a both or neither scenario and I would definitely lean neither.
I would say likely drop UNM, but I would rather just have UNM than both. ABQ is a decent enough market and the Basketball program adds value, but adding both just seems like cannibalization and will decrease the bottom line DO we need 2 schools to try to capture 2 million people?. Plus I would Imagine UNM captures the majority of the state by themselves, plus I think they have more of a national presence. I see UNM gear occasionally around here in Texas, never NMSU stuff.
So I would rather keep UNM over adding NMSU, but I can see dropping the state altogether. Though UNM could also act as a bridge school for UTSA and definitely UTEP.
AS for staying in Cali? Fresno and SDSU is already there. SJSU just doesn't not offer much, other than a decent performing football program with terrible fan support. I would probably pass because we have run the SJSU experiment, and I think the TV partners know their true value, which I imagine isn't much. Also makes room for Stanford or Cal once they come running back.
We just saw what value SJSU has as the UNLV vs SJSU game was only picked up on the Mountain West Network. Of course our value was based on prior year performance but so was theirs.
Also how few of their fans travelled for that game. A game with championship implications for both teams.
If we cant find a way to get into the Big 12 or other P4, any further discussion on expansion or conference becomes irrelevant. The Pac 2 or whatever's left isnt going to move the needle to get the type of TV dollars that will be needed to really get the access to best players to compete with the P4. The gap will continue to widen and the lesser conferences may move pieces around here and there but eventually it wont matter. Itll be like a slightly better version of FCS and will eventually end up competing that way. And who knows, that might be better for the game, but it'll definitely suck for fans. the only reason we are even a possibility is because we are a unique market with a lot of high end pieces. The stadium, practice facility and location provide huge potential. Otherwise, wed be looking like the rest of the schools outside looking in.
Yeah unfortunately.
Not sure trying to create the best G5 conference possible is even worth it long term.
I do agree, but the one caveat and the "ace in the hole" is that one guaranteed playoff spot for G5.
Being in a super mega conference like the new B1G or SEC will create a ton of cannibalization.
Being in the best G5 will almost guarantee that spot for the winner of that conference. Very unlikely to gain an at large too, but still. It is an easier path than some teams within the mega conferences.
The difference in revenue is huge, and it is a disadvantage for sure.
How long does that continue for... These P4s have already shown they dont care about the rules they create for themselves. Once that G5 gets destroyed in the Sugar Bowl by Alabama and they can point and say "see, no one wants to see that" itll be done away with.
Sooner or later the courts are going to get involved with the amount of money, politics and greed involved. With the larger schools trying to push most other schools out and have complete control of the income, it will end up being decided by the courts.
Saying that doesn't make UNLV look good. We had the championship game IN OUR OWN YARD and barely got more than a normal game. One good season doesn't make a program. I know you guys keep saying the LV TV market, but do we really? Until the Rebels put 5-6 years of bowl winning championship seasons, people in the LV market won't even notice.
For an entire economy built on losing, paradoxically, Las Vegas only care about winners. Until you win consistently, no one cares. And when you stop winning, they'll toss you aside.
Saying that doesn't make UNLV look good. We had the championship game IN OUR OWN YARD and barely got more than a normal game. One good season doesn't make a program. I know you guys keep saying the LV TV market, but do we really? Until the Rebels put 5-6 years of bowl winning championship seasons, people in the LV market won't even notice.
For an entire economy built on losing, paradoxically, Las Vegas only care about winners. Until you win consistently, no one cares. And when you stop winning, they'll toss you aside.
That's not the 12 team playoff... the playoffs are supposed to make it feel like every level has a chance, like March Madness, but that's not exactly a reality of talent gaps
