CSU/USU suing MW over exit fees
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I agree about Utep. They just need to win. They already have decent facilities and a couple of big boosters. The Hunt family are oil billionaires
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I would say their program is where the Hauck/ Sanchez era was. It would like an alternative history if UNLV had an on campus stadium built instead of allegiant.
A very good point here, but first…
You say you think we were left out because basically we had sucked previously, but then say “why snuff out a team that will increase your bottom line when all of expansion has been 99% about that?”
So which is it? Did we suck and not meet their metrics or were we a team that would have increased their bottom line?
Personally, I think there were absolute feelings of superiority or fear of UNLV/Las Vegas that caused them to decide to not include UNLV in the first round of expansion. Trying to hide behind “metrics” was a stupid cover.
I’m positive their egos told them that this “bold” move was going to destroy the MW and they’d get UNLV and AFA anyway. Then they would be in the cool kids club as some sort of founding members and everyone else would be second class, including UNLV.
They’re also afraid of Las Vegas, because it would be the dominating city within the conference. Vegas makes too much sense as the hub for everything the conference does and it would eventually swallow up all your operations.
Total side note… in many posts, when talking about poaching penalties and exit fees, you make the argument that they’ll get settled for far less or thrown out completely. You’re a smart person, I’m sure there are smart people in the new PAC as well…
If they thought litigation was going to save them, then why not go for the whole kit and kaboodle right out of the gate? If it’s not going to cost anywhere near what it’s supposed to cost then why put yourself in the spot you’re now in?
What I do agree with you about is actual TV markets mattering less than they have, due to how games are consumed. Yes markets matter, but probably only more for awareness of a specific team within that market.
Sports betting proliferation probably has the biggest impact nowadays. So it’s very reliant on “branding”, which creates awareness and gets people to tune in.
The new PAC no doubt has the better teams and brands right now. The MW will never pass them in that regard. But they are too small and too regional. They’ll have too few opportunities on a weekly basis to convince the rest of the country to care. You think anyone outside the Pacific time zone is gonna care about SDSU vs CSU that much more than SJSU vs AFA, assuming none of them are ranked?
A merged MW/PAC would, as a brand, be far superior and would no doubt help the profiles of its best teams. It would be clear and away the best G5 in my opinion and would force the rest of the country to pay attention. I mean you’d basically own the west.
I dont know wjy UNLV was left in the first four but i have 1 of 2 guesses. Either the PAC didnt want the news out until the teams announced the move and they knew the joke of the regents would ruin that with UNLV. Or because they thought that UNLV and UNR had to come together and they didnt want that peice of sh%$ school from up north as part of it.
Neither. Had to do woth Boise not wanting an up and coming football program to challenge them. Look at the league they built for themselves, full of mediocre programs in financial troubles without anyone really capable of challenging them for supremacy. Plain and simple they wanted to get to 8 schools and close the doors. Boise should go undefeated every season in that conference. They're a brand that's able to schedule an occasional good ooc game and that's all they need. Then they keep the extra 3 million from cfp qualification and continue the financial supremacy they enjoy in MWC due to sweetheart deal we gave them in 2012
I think the keep things quiet part is right..
But it doesn't explain USU not getting an initial invite.
What I I think happened was, PAC was sure they could get Memphis & Tulane (Possibly UTSA as well) .
When that fell through they circled back to UNLV and USU as fallback option. Had Memphis and Tulane jumped UNLV and USU would have never been invited in my opinion.
If all that is true I'm surprised boise let the zags share in the "media revenue" package. It would seem that boise and the zags gave a nice sucker punch to the other schools.
Very self-centered deals for BSU and Gonzaga. Good point.
I stopped following after a while since nothing official became announced. Isn’t NIU (I think that’s the school) announcing their decision to join or decline MWC in January?
When is the pac announcing their tv deal? Any due date for that yet?
The middle two paragraphs weren’t directed at you, Meister, just asking the entire crowd in case these points are already known.
That was SDSU and an attempt to save face after AAC teams said no. They wanted a stronger conference basketball wise to insure they get at minimum an at large bid each year, and the 50% credits + full media rights was the carrot they had to dangle for Gonzaga. If our friend @Loyal Coug1 is correct, the original Pac 2 teams weren't happy about that addition. Those were the 2 schools driving the realignment bus, both created sweetheart deals to keep themselves financially ahead of the others.
Its because none of the new schools have any voting rights until they officially “join”
So, the Pac two made the decision to how the revenue was going to be "shared"? I would think there was more to that.
Replies in order:
epstein - "I’m sure there are smart people in the new PAC as well". Well that makes one of you.
bcvegas - "When is the pac announcing their tv deal? Any due date for that yet?". I dunno. It would probably help if we actually had an FBS-qualified league, wouldn't it?
Masked - I think most if not many delusional Cougs (no idea what the Beavs think, they are all high on legal mushrooms there in Oregon) liked adding Gonzaga. Not this Coug. We sold out bigtime, and will rue the day. Gonzaga will keep all the coin they make on non-con games, then get to keep half of their NCAA BB allocations, then (I guess) share in whatever our pathetic FB media rights bring in? Boy what a sweet deal for the rest of the Pac.
Masked, in WA and Meister - I believe that the traitorous MW 5 have some voting rights. I thought that included new membership offers. IIRC, the Pac-2 held on to all rights in terms of keeping our dwindling windfall to ourselves. Which makes sense.
Here’s the contract. A good amount of it is redacted, and I don’t know if the other Mw schools got the same deal.
I got it wrong. They are required to participate in meetings, but they don’t have a vote until 2026; unless its for 1. granting the media rights deal 2.voting to add a members.
It is no shame to need to be corrected by the All-Knowing, All-Seeing, yet humble Loyal One. I'm used to this on my idiot-filled board.
Now, I will make a bold prediction. The Traitorous MW 5 will wake up on NY's Day and say WTF did we sign on for? They will do a conference call, and then call Gloria (with their attorneys on the call) and say look, how do we get the F out of this shitshow and come back home? And can we bring this Loyal Coug1 guy along with us? He's dying to become your personal assistant.
It is no shame to need to be corrected by the All-Knowing, All-Seeing, yet humble Loyal One. I'm used to this on my idiot-filled board.
Now, I will make a bold prediction. The Traitorous MW 5 will wake up on NY's Day and say WTF did we sign on for? They will do a conference call, and then call Gloria (with their attorneys on the call) and say look, how do we get the F out of this shitshow and come back home? And can we bring this Loyal Coug1 guy along with us? He's dying to become your personal assistant.
They ain't coming back.
I do think there is a non zero chance they come back, no matter how small. Each school would be on the hook for a lot of money though. Unless they don’t find that 8th member.It is no shame to need to be corrected by the All-Knowing, All-Seeing, yet humble Loyal One. I'm used to this on my idiot-filled board.
Now, I will make a bold prediction. The Traitorous MW 5 will wake up on NY's Day and say WTF did we sign on for? They will do a conference call, and then call Gloria (with their attorneys on the call) and say look, how do we get the F out of this shitshow and come back home? And can we bring this Loyal Coug1 guy along with us? He's dying to become your personal assistant.
@Loyal Coug1 just wants our commissioner. He’d join the Sunbelt if he had the hots for that commissioner. 🤣
I think that is true. I read somewhere that for the first 2 years only OSU and WSU are the final decision makers.
Oregon State Staying In The Pac-12
OSU and WSU previously took action which indicated the universities intended on seeing if they can keep the Pac-12 alive. And now the four Mountain West teams going to the Pac-12 reinforces that notion.The presidents of Washington State and Oregon State make up the conference’s board of directors. That means those leaders alone have the power to decide what to do with the Pac-12 and its resources like TV revenue.
Those resources will help make it possible for the Pac-12 to add several new teams.
Oregon State Football Conference Realignment: Pac-12 Is Adding At Least Four Mountain West Teams
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I was not trying to sound contradictory there, actually it is the same point. My argument was that our numbers were not good enough, because IF they were, why snuff us out? Does that make sense? I don't think any sort of perceived jealousy would trump earning potential for everyone.
Is there some sort of jealously and fear of UNLV/Las Vegas? Maybe. But I think it was 90% based off of their original media partners and their "metrics" that we all laugh about. Look at the numbers that we can see, and UNLV is not in the top. Simple as that. We don't see all of the Ratings data either. We can use attendance as a guide, but their aren't the same thing. Us UNLV fans tend to over rate our school. We do it with our players, our coaches, our teams, and our media worth. Sometimes we have to read between the lines. We have been in talks with the Big 12 ever since the Fertitta Complex was under construction. We have had meeting with their brass a few times trying to sell UNLV. We haven't been in their top 8 before when it came to expansion. We were not in the top group for the PAC. Why? Because though there is potential here, UNLV's market penetration has not been good. The results are what they are.
Which brings me to Utah State? Yes they are third fiddle to BYU and Utah, but perhaps they have decent TV numbers anyway. AFA was left out because I think military academies have a bit of a ceiling. They potentially have a national fan base, but I think AFA is a distant 3rd to Army and Navy based off of people who serve.
The only way I think some conferences are "afraid" of Vegas is that having a home team there makes conference championships muddy. I think is hurts us as much as it helps us.
I'm not exactly sure what you are asking here. I think the PAC 2 know better than anyone how you can't count on exit fees. They just went through that process and settled for 65% of a very reasonable exit fee. I'm sure that plays a role in terms of all of this. As for the poaching fees? I don't know what happens there. I do think dragging things out helps them if that answers the question. By slowly adding on lawsuits from the poaching and the exit fees I think they are just trying to overwhelm the MW to force some settlements.
I generally agree. A merged PACWEST would have a better overall brand. But that isn't the goal. The goal is to maximize the bottom line. So these moves were made for that reason almost alone. I think they signed the poaching fee agreement with full intention of merging, but once they saw the projected numbers on media value, they retracted. The PAC 2 was working of their value from previous media negotiations and it was too hard to swallow.
So cherry pick the best markets and most of the best brands. Sure they are regional, but again not sure how much that matters. I don't think that a ton of people care about SDSU vs CSU vs SJSU and AFA around the country. But I think the SDSU vs CSU game gets significantly more eyeballs because those programs have stronger fan bases.
Obviously things have not gone to plan with the PAC, but I don't think things are as dire as everyone else things
I don't see the Pac or MWC dragging things out. At this point the cases (exit fees and poaching fees) are being driven by the judges. With the poaching fees the Pac has until 1-13-25 to respond to the MWC motion to dismiss the case. A hearing will then take place 3-25-25. The case filed by the Pac was essentially challenged with the motion to dismiss as the MW contends the Pac did not show in their original filing how they were harmed by the Scheduling Agreement. In my non legal opinion I think the MW has a better argument in this case.
I have no opinion on the exit fee case so it's just a wait and see thing as to how that turns out. But, I don't think the MW is overwhelmed at all. Two separate cases in two different States (CA & CO) with two different law firms licensed for those jurisdictions. If anything Gloria is going to fight like hell to protect the MW.
You may be right. Personally I don't see how the argument against the poaching fees holds up at all, but I do think they are trying to pile on the MW with several fronts. It is not like the MW has a ton of money or man power to fight these things. We also don't have a ton of money. In fact the conference has basically promised a bunch of this fee money before we have received it.
Will the MW balk at that? Maybe not, but I think the PAC thought it was worth the tactic. They have the money to fight this more than we do.
My guess is the poaching fees hold up, but they will try to use that against the MW when it comes to exit fees. An average of 11mil per school is actually on the high end of exit fee given our media value already. These are separate issues, but I think it may help talk the exit fee down a bit more than if the poaching fees didn't exist.
I can say that the Pac didn’t approach the MW media partners. They did what they did behind the scenes leaning on their consultants to derive project value. CBS would have fought tooth and nail to stop the exodus.
It’s an interesting argument, re: talking the exit fees down on account of the poaching fees. Sort of feels like a double dip, but then again as you point out, separate issues.
The exit fees were agreed to years prior by all parties involved. Are they egregious? It might appear so, BUT I think a very good argument could be made as to WHY they are what they are, and we need look no further than the actions that Boise and SDSU have taken in the recent past.
(Total side note: shouldn’t Boises exit fee be higher than the others on account of them getting more money annually?)
When these fees were agreed to the MW was fighting all these external conference realignment battles and needed a way to protect ALL of its members against departures. It was probably also never thought that it would happen THIS way with 5 members all at once.
I guess maybe ask this question… would anyone think the fee is egregious if it was just Boise State leaving? As the most valuable brand I don’t think anyone would think twice that it was fair.
Again, I don’t think any of the departing teams (aside from Boise and maybe SDSU) thought this pertained to them, and if it did by some small chance it would mean they were going to a P5, and who cares at that point?
So they may still get negotiated down, but I don’t think there too much of a legal argument against them, and a pretty sound argument for them. The specific scenario where 5 teams leave wouldn’t have been a consideration to be made, and the MW can’t be liable due to it… in my non lawyer opinion.
As for the poaching fees…
The PAC2 are trying to claim that they were “taken advantage of”… all the while sitting on a monetary war chest they could use to destroy the MW. Their actions basically PROVE the case against them.
They can TRY to point to the “big scary” number as somehow being “unfair”, but I don’t see that as being a sound argument either.
"all the while sitting on a monetary war chest they could use to destroy the MW"
Thats the issue and I think discovery on this case will be very interesting... mostly because i dont think they are sitting on the war chest that everyone thinks. That money is needed for the 2 schools left behind. Its not just money they're holding onto to go buy a conference. They dont want to help pay exit fees or these poaching fees because that takes away from their (OSU/WSU) bottom lines and its money they dont actually currently have. They cant actually spend the money they dont have between the NCAA credits and CFP payouts. Additionally, until they become an official 8 member conference they cant spend any of the money they have- since if they fail to meet the requirements of a conference by 2026 that money goes to everyone equally. Yes, they have the 65 million from the departing schools and whatever was left over from their media rights(minimal I'm guessing) but its not the full dolar amount at least not right now that people assume and with all the promises for helping schools fund their fees, the poaching agreement, etc, they arent exactly sitting on a real pile of cash to pay those. Thats why they are all suing.
Thats the issue and I think discovery on this case will be very interesting... mostly because i dont think they are sitting on the war chest that everyone thinks. That money is needed for the 2 schools left behind. Its not just money they're holding onto to go buy a conference. They dont want to help pay exit fees or these poaching fees because that takes away from their (OSU/WSU) bottom lines and its money they dont actually currently have. They cant actually spend the money they dont have between the NCAA credits and CFP payouts. Additionally, until they become an official 8 member conference they cant spend any of the money they have- since if they fail to meet the requirements of a conference by 2026 that money goes to everyone equally. Yes, they have the 65 million from the departing schools and whatever was left over from their media rights(minimal I'm guessing) but its not the full dolar amount at least not right now that people assume and with all the promises for helping schools fund their fees, the poaching agreement, etc, they arent exactly sitting on a real pile of cash to pay those. Thats why they are all suing.
Their commissioner has even said it's not a 'war chest'. That money is earmarked for conference growth etc. I do not believe OSU or WSU can just dip into it. Even if they could, it would barely cover WSU's debt. They are in a really tough financial situation.
You're 100% right. I don't think they anticipate outright 'winning' any of these suits. The intention of these suits is to just lower the amount through a settlement. I don't t think either side has a 'smoking gun' that will get the suits thrown out.
One argument I think is odd is CSU and USU saying they never officially announced so therefore they still had voting rights. Um..Ok are you officially announcing now then? Because the less notice you give doesn't it actually raise the exit fees?
I expect PAC to announce an 8th addition soon. Likely a Texas State or possibly North Texas.
Media deal numbers after that. Seeing rumors as high as 18-20 million which sounds absurd.
Likely closer to 10 with maybe a high of 12?
If it comes in closer to 10 it's great for Fresno/SDSU/USU/CSU.
Boise, not so much..A couple million more than they get now with sweetheart deal in MWC.
Definitely not great for WSU or OSU who will have to go on some strict budget diets.
If theyre getting 20 million dollars a year in media deal, we need to pay up and just go join them. Thats about as close to the P4 $ as you can dream of and that's about 10 million less than their top dollar deal just 2 years ago when the California schools exited. I like the idea of beating down for a few years on the MWC building our brand and winning conference titles with some extra cash to get the big 12 invite, but if its 10-15 more per season in media deal than the MWC, you walk away.
I 100% agree.
If PAC gets anything near 15 million UNLV has to consider making that move right? If there's still an invite on the table.
If they were to turn it down I would have to think the BIG12 has legs. If they were to accept, then the 'Pursue P4 exemption on exit fees' was purely lip service.
I don't think you join the PAC knowing the BIG12 might be a realistic option just to saddle yourself with exit fees again in 2, 3, 4, or 5 years.
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Sorry but I think you are very mistaken in your comments. The only money that the Pac-2 can't spend is the remaining NCAA BB credits that will exist on 7/1/26. Somewhere around $30M. The lion's share of our around $255M "war chest" will come to the Pac-2 between now and then. Rose Bowl $ ($50M/year this year and next), and the NCAA BB money that we will get prior to 7/1/26. Of course the Pac-2 is going through its windfall like drunken sailors to fund FY 24 and FY 26.
