CKK is more than likely…safe. (LVRJ)

[dcut03]

I don't think he recruits "like shit". I think we still have some of the better "talent" in this league. Last season I think we had easily the best collection of dudes.
What is "like shit" is the offensive and defensive approach. I have had more dynamic offenses playing pick up ball, and defensively the lack of trust to let someone guard their man leaves wide open buckets.
Perfect example, down to basically 6 dudes with the best player out, they play better? Our current roster has guys that are really good at certain aspects of the game. A good coach would be able to create opportunities for them to shine, instead of just rolling the ball out there.
It will be more of the same, simply because the approach to the game will be basically the same. We will get a bunch of transfers in here again, to have a practically brand new team again. The only difference is, do the boosters continue to put money into NIL for the same results we are getting? Why would they, so it will be the same flawed system with worse talent.
I think a new coach that can get a bunch of guys that plays to a specific system, or a collection of dudes where he can build a system. Do what Utah State has done. A well coached team with above average mid major talent can get you further than we have been. Then you add some select talent to round it out and put you over the top year over year. Establish a system and a culture, then pick the best guys you can get for that system. Instead of the best guys money can buy without a system.

 

[WarthogRebel]

I don't think he recruits "like shit". I think we still have some of the better "talent" in this league. Last season I think we had easily the best collection of dudes.
What is "like shit" is the offensive and defensive approach. I have had more dynamic offenses playing pick up ball, and defensively the lack of trust to let someone guard their man leaves wide open buckets.
Perfect example, down to basically 6 dudes with the best player out, they play better? Our current roster has guys that are really good at certain aspects of the game. A good coach would be able to create opportunities for them to shine, instead of just rolling the ball out there.
It will be more of the same, simply because the approach to the game will be basically the same. We will get a bunch of transfers in here again, to have a practically brand new team again. The only difference is, do the boosters continue to put money into NIL for the same results we are getting? Why would they, so it will be the same flawed system with worse talent.
I think a new coach that can get a bunch of guys that plays to a specific system, or a collection of dudes where he can build a system. Do what Utah State has done. A well coached team with above average mid major talent can get you further than we have been. Then you add some select talent to round it out and put you over the top year over year. Establish a system and a culture, then pick the best guys you can get for that system. Instead of the best guys money can buy without a system.

"The only difference is, do the boosters continue to put money into NIL for the same results we are getting?"

If they do - or if they don't, I believe it makes little difference with CKK. They should save their money for the new coach.

 

[Masked_rebel]

I don't think he recruits "like shit". I think we still have some of the better "talent" in this league. Last season I think we had easily the best collection of dudes.
What is "like shit" is the offensive and defensive approach. I have had more dynamic offenses playing pick up ball, and defensively the lack of trust to let someone guard their man leaves wide open buckets.
Perfect example, down to basically 6 dudes with the best player out, they play better? Our current roster has guys that are really good at certain aspects of the game. A good coach would be able to create opportunities for them to shine, instead of just rolling the ball out there.
It will be more of the same, simply because the approach to the game will be basically the same. We will get a bunch of transfers in here again, to have a practically brand new team again. The only difference is, do the boosters continue to put money into NIL for the same results we are getting? Why would they, so it will be the same flawed system with worse talent.
I think a new coach that can get a bunch of guys that plays to a specific system, or a collection of dudes where he can build a system. Do what Utah State has done. A well coached team with above average mid major talent can get you further than we have been. Then you add some select talent to round it out and put you over the top year over year. Establish a system and a culture, then pick the best guys you can get for that system. Instead of the best guys money can buy without a system.

Yeah, I agree. Hes been able to recruit some pretty talented players into the university. I agree its a coaching issue and you see it when crunch time hits and guys don't know what to do to get to the bucket. Harkless, keeping Bryce for Senior season, Boone's, Hill, Dedan... All talented players.
I also agree, a new coach that brings in players fit to an established identity/system. That was the problem with hiring Kevin.. He didnt have that and hasnt established it. He tried to use the hero ball player the first 2 years with Bryce then EJ.. Then he built an experienced team around a young talented PG but there was a bunch of issues.. Then tis year he tried to build a roster with a bunch of role players, guys you find 6, 7, 8 in a rotation and they've all played like that for the most part- inconsistent scoring, rebounding, etc... Its led to mediocre results with a few games here and there that they came together enough to pull out a big win.

 

[LVRebel2000]

Just keep him. Give him an office with a desk and a phone. ( locate in the baseball complex) Set a 40 hour week and require a detailed analysis of 5 different team defenses a week . Save $800, 000.

I like the way you think

 

[Couev]

Yeah, I agree. Hes been able to recruit some pretty talented players into the university. I agree its a coaching issue and you see it when crunch time hits and guys don't know what to do to get to the bucket. Harkless, keeping Bryce for Senior season, Boone's, Hill, Dedan... All talented players.

So, you can make the argument that he's gotten some talent in. But recruiting isn't just talent acquisition--it's roster construction and an increasingly large part of the game in the modern era is talent retention. And by the 2nd two metrics, I don't think you can really be excited about the recruiting.

 

[j. spilotro]

I like the way you think

Well, yeah. That’s one way to do it. And if they decide to stay in the game and head to another school, that reduces the pay.

Now if they go to the private sector and sell insurance or whatever, they’ll get full pay. But you really think they want to take both feet out of the door for a couple of years? I’m many cases, you’re basically committing to a life without hoops as the rest of your career.

So ….

 

[Masked_rebel]

So, you can make the argument that he's gotten some talent in. But recruiting isn't just talent acquisition--it's roster construction and an increasingly large part of the game in the modern era is talent retention. And by the 2nd two metrics, I don't think you can really be excited about the recruiting.

I disagree that in the modern era its talent retention. Roster construction isn't due to a lack of recruiting. Its due to Kevin not having a brand identity and trying to fix issues from one team to the next through recruiting. We've gotten good talent that our coach cant fit together, that's not a recruits problem. The previous post referenced the s*** recruiting comment and thats not fair a fair criticism of him. Roster construction, identity, coaching absolutely.
The portal has basically ruined talent retention. Most teams are overhauling roster each year, kids want playing time or to be on competitive teams(cough, cough more money). Sure Id like to have seen him retain our younger talents, because they(Gilbert, Hall) probably would've been better than JJ or Webster last season, but it is what it is in college basketball.

 

[Rebel77fl2]

First off, I am totally on board with letting CKK walk. My guess is you negotiate a buyout below 2.3M and closer to the 1.6M owed. Because as someone mentioned you could put him in another job and just pay him the 1.6M, I think you can also get it down to less as CKK wants to coach somewhere and doesn’t want to do nothing for a year or two. So maybe 1M which is not too much more than what was thought.

That said I think the biggest issue with keeping CKK is he has shown horrible judgment in the portal, some might be bad luck others are just bad choices for this level. I have zero confidence he can build a team that could win the MWC regular season, but if he stays I hope he proves me wrong cause at the end of the day I don’t care who the coach is that gets us back to winning.

 

[Rebel77fl2]

I disagree that in the modern era its talent retention. Roster construction isn't due to a lack of recruiting. Its due to Kevin not having a brand identity and trying to fix issues from one team to the next through recruiting. We've gotten good talent that our coach cant fit together, that's not a recruits problem. The previous post referenced the s*** recruiting comment and thats not fair a fair criticism of him. Roster construction, identity, coaching absolutely.
The portal has basically ruined talent retention. Most teams are overhauling roster each year, kids want playing time or to be on competitive teams(cough, cough more money). Sure Id like to have seen him retain our younger talents, because they(Gilbert, Hall) probably would've been better than JJ or Webster last season, but it is what it is in college basketball.

No way, his transfer portals pickups have been bad. Any non-senior he has brought in has not produced up to expectation for the most part and you can’t build based on that model. Roster construction is the same as recruiting, bringing in shooter that can shoot, PG that can’t play point is just bad recruiting, bigs with no muscle and can’t rebound is bad recruiting! Obviously there are other issues but if you can’t get talent identification right it makes everything else so much harder.

 

[Couev]

I disagree that in the modern era its talent retention.

So, for certain players that get head hunted by P4 programs, I agree with you. But losing someone like Keyshawn Hall to George Mason is unacceptable, and that's where I think retention IS a part of the recruiting equation. Putting in work to retain players like Hall means spending money and resources just like in the recruiting process. Most times you won't be able to beat someone who comes poaching, but you should never be losing those battles to schools that are at or below where you are.

We've gotten good talent that our coach cant fit together, that's not a recruits problem.

But that calculus is part of the recruiting picture. Knowing who can play with other players, knowing who you'll have a problem retaining and piecing together an adequate roster given your schollies is part of the recruiting process. I don't know that KK has an identity to recruit around, so his identity has been amass as much talent as I can, regardless of how things will work. And that part of roster construction IS secondary to recruiting in my humble opinion. There's room for you to disagree, obviously--but if Kevin recruited 4 players next year an all were 4s and 5s and he knew he was losing Dedan and that Jace was a injury risk and didn't bring in another PG, wouldn't you consider that a failure regardless of the talent of the 4 frontcourt guys?

 

[Rod_the_Rebel]

After borrowing money from a friend, say 20 bucks, are you going to succeed in asking for 40 dollars right after that? Not likely. From the LVRJ article, sounds like the money people are frustrated with the lack of results given their financial support. I think they would be hesitant to pull the trigger on 2.35 million for an unknown situation (search).

The money is actually better spent on players NIL. 2.35 million buyout is crazy to me. The only real option is to wait until June and then promote Peery but then again I have not been impressed at all with this staff with recruiting and development.

I don’t think you understand. Someone can easily just write a personal check for that.

 

[j. spilotro]

So, for certain players that get head hunted by P4 programs, I agree with you. But losing someone like Keyshawn Hall to George Mason is unacceptable, and that's where I think retention IS a part of the recruiting equation. Putting in work to retain players like Hall means spending money and resources just like in the recruiting process. Most times you won't be able to beat someone who comes poaching, but you should never be losing those battles to schools that are at or below where you are.



But that calculus is part of the recruiting picture. Knowing who can play with other players, knowing who you'll have a problem retaining and piecing together an adequate roster given your schollies is part of the recruiting process. I don't know that KK has an identity to recruit around, so his identity has been amass as much talent as I can, regardless of how things will work. And that part of roster construction IS secondary to recruiting in my humble opinion. There's room for you to disagree, obviously--but if Kevin recruited 4 players next year an all were 4s and 5s and he knew he was losing Dedan and that Jace was a injury risk and didn't bring in another PG, wouldn't you consider that a failure regardless of the talent of the 4 frontcourt guys?

Hall was a problem child, if a team has a chance at chemistry, he will ruin it, imo.

Kruger is probably the worst we’ve had at constructing a team. It’s like he takes guys he can get regardless of how they fit, frequently duplicates limited skill sets and sizes, too much duplication. And sorely lacking depth at some parts.

 

[WarthogRebel]

Hall was a problem child, if a team has a chance at chemistry, he will ruin it, imo.

Kruger is probably the worst we’ve had at constructing a team. It’s like he takes guys he can get regardless of how they fit, frequently duplicates limited skill sets and sizes, too much duplication. And sorely lacking depth at some parts.

Think of the hundreds of 7' Ukrainians who would love to come play ball rather than risk a trip to the front. KK can't even get one of them.

 

[Rosegreen1]

I don’t think you understand. Someone can easily just write a personal check for that.

It’s not just 2.3 million, it’s the next coaches salary etc.

Why didn’t someone cut a check for Pitino? Why didn’t they for Cronin and then Beard etc etc. They get buyouts for TJO and immediately went cheap with a third assistant being promoted. I’m not even sure there was a search last time.

We’ll find out soon enough but I just don’t see it. Wade is going to get paid millions by a P5 school. I don’t think we’re going to go forward with a coaching change that will cost 5 million to do and pump more into NIL.

 

[WarthogRebel]

It’s not just 2.3 million, it’s the next coaches salary etc.

Why didn’t someone cut a check for Pitino? Why didn’t they for Cronin and then Beard etc etc. They get buyouts for TJO and immediately went cheap with a third assistant being promoted. I’m not even sure there was a search last time.

We’ll find out soon enough but I just don’t see it. Wade is going to get paid millions by a P5 school. I don’t think we’re going to go forward with a coaching change that will cost 5 million to do and pump more into NIL.

I think it's clear Wade is going to be out of our ability to get. But there are at least a dozen coaches who would do better than KK at a slightly lower price. I thought we'd be out of luck after reading the article but I now think we'll get a new coach who'll do better. Most any coach who is currently successful at a lower program can come in a out coach CKK. My question is - will the boosters have enough faith in the new guy to ante up for NIL?. Without a good amount of NIL the coach won't really get a fair chance.

 

[LVBowhunter1]

I'm not going to renew my season tix. Much cheaper to buy tickets to select games as I walk up.

Add me to that list! 1987-now..a total pass on next year!

 

[Couev]

Hall was a problem child, if a team has a chance at chemistry, he will ruin it, imo.

Kruger is probably the worst we’ve had at constructing a team. It’s like he takes guys he can get regardless of how they fit, frequently duplicates limited skill sets and sizes, too much duplication. And sorely lacking depth at some parts.

That's probably true, but he also had the fastest hook I've ever seen for a freshman. Made Carlos Lopez look like a key and trusted rotation member. But again, the Big Guard issue kind of cuts two ways. If you waste a schollie on a guy who is a problem in the locker room, is going to come in 60 lbs overweight, and who you can't trust on the floor and then you can't or won't retain him once you let your strength and nutrition team start working on him, then why did you even bother with the schollie? I guess you could argue that's scouting, but scouting recruits IS STILL recruiting.

I agree with everything else. He'd get shooters who were pure catch and shoot guys and then ask them to be ball handlers and shoot off the dribble, and he loved that Kruger thing of playing guys out of position because he liked them and couldn't really be bothered to recruit a full roster. Let's load up on long wings who can defend well but can't shoot or score and then wonder why our offense stagnates and devolves into hero ball.

And I'm not even scratching the surface of the issues I have with his actual coaching acumen.

 

[TheMatrix31]

How can we not raise the money to buy him out

Booster pool isn’t great, a lot of that money is already tied up in Mullen and we are operating in the red. You throw away 2.5 million and then there isn’t much left to actually go out and sign a good one. Basically would be looking at another budget hire

 

[dcut03]

The worst roster construction was year 2. That is for sure.
Hardly any scoring, and went out and got a bunch of high level defensive dudes and they played some sort of match up zone that negated their strengths. Why get a bunch of high level defenders and then not trust them to guard their man?
I think the overall roster construction of this year is actually pretty good. DJ as a point. 2 good shooting wings in Bedford and Rishwain. You have a utility man in Hill. A second scorer in Henley. A really good low post in Bear, with a good defensive freshman that has potential in Pape. A healthy Whaley would have added more low post scoring. You can do a LOT with that roster. Drive and kick, inside out, clear out for the post, off ball screens. There are multiple options there.
But no. We stand around and watch DJ try to make tough shots. Or pass the ball around and jack up a long contested 3. Very little clear outs for Bear, very little effort to actually set him up un any way.
Last season had more "talent", I think there was a lot to work with there, but again no effort. This year the pieces fit together a bit better.
Give this roster to Boise and they easy win the league and probably win a game finally in the tourney. And I don't think Leon Rice is that great of a coach, but he tends to get most out of his players and they play good defense despite typically being pretty poor athletically.

 

[LVRebel2000]

It's hard to recruit to a system if you don't have a system.

 

[Couev]

The worst roster construction was year 2. That is for sure.
Hardly any scoring, and went out and got a bunch of high level defensive dudes and they played some sort of match up zone that negated their strengths. Why get a bunch of high level defenders and then not trust them to guard their man?
I think the overall roster construction of this year is actually pretty good. DJ as a point. 2 good shooting wings in Bedford and Rishwain. You have a utility man in Hill. A second scorer in Henley. A really good low post in Bear, with a good defensive freshman that has potential in Pape. A healthy Whaley would have added more low post scoring. You can do a LOT with that roster. Drive and kick, inside out, clear out for the post, off ball screens. There are multiple options there.
But no. We stand around and watch DJ try to make tough shots. Or pass the ball around and jack up a long contested 3. Very little clear outs for Bear, very little effort to actually set him up un any way.
Last season had more "talent", I think there was a lot to work with there, but again no effort. This year the pieces fit together a bit better.
Give this roster to Boise and they easy win the league and probably win a game finally in the tourney. And I don't think Leon Rice is that great of a coach, but he tends to get most out of his players and they play good defense despite typically being pretty poor athletically.

I think on paper going into this season I agreed with this take 100%, it seemed like the first year that he gave any thought at all to the roster construction. Injuries have hurt, but in fairness Whaley and Whiting both have injury histories so that should have been part of the equation when you're taking them in. Instead you end up playing your starters for huge minutes and then you end up losing Dedan because you're playing him 36 minutes a game and with no real back up you have to do out-of-position PG by committee. That has worked for us a bit so far, but I don't think it's really sustainable.

I also think some of our new pieces are flawed a lot more than we thought coming in. Rishwain and Bedford are only marginal defensive players--both are especially poor on the ball stopping the drive. You mix that with Dedan and Brooklyn who are both below average defenders and you can sort of extrapolate that you're going to have headaches against good guards--especially larger ones. Bear Cherry is indecisive and shrinks from physical play--that would be okay if you had Whaley there, but it gets hard to count on Bear as a post offensive player--he's much better as a trash man unless he's playing soft and small defenders. I think Henley and N'diaye are better than I thought they were going to be on paper.

 

[Rosegreen1]

Roster construction is ok, to me the issue has always been team chemistry. The only time the team was great chemistry wise was CKK’s first year. A lot of that was a top notch veteran staff and mostly Hartman keeping things moving and everyone on the same page. I think Harper saw that and thought there was something brewing hence the extension.

And unfortunately the staff bailed on CKK for greener pastures and they were replaced with lesser known assistants. Only one to garner any attention was Peery and I’m not sure he’s a great developmental coach. I look at guys that have played under CKK more than one season, and they don’t really improve, most regress or are stagnant.

To me, development of team chemistry is not easy and you need leaders and team guys to make it work. Hard to do in this new environment of NIL.

 

[dcut03]

Roster construction is ok, to me the issue has always been team chemistry. The only time the team was great chemistry wise was CKK’s first year. A lot of that was a top notch veteran staff and mostly Hartman keeping things moving and everyone on the same page. I think Harper saw that and thought there was something brewing hence the extension.

And unfortunately the staff bailed on CKK for greener pastures and they were replaced with lesser known assistants. Only one to garner any attention was Peery and I’m not sure he’s a great developmental coach. I look at guys that have played under CKK more than one season, and they don’t really improve, most regress or are stagnant.

To me, development of team chemistry is not easy and you need leaders and team guys to make it work. Hard to do in this new environment of NIL.

Well Hartman should have been the HC. He had the much better resume. I am not surprised he left after one year.
The first year was promising, it was a huge upgrade over the dumpster fire that was TJ's lame duck year, but hardly worth extending, and I am one of the more pro KK guys on this board.
Chemistry? Meh. It seems like the guys get along just fine, there just isn't any structure. One of CKK's strength is building what at least seems like good family type of unit, especially since it is practically brand new each year.
They are playing better team ball because they have to without their ball dominant guard in there. They have to.

 

[cducker68]

Either way good chance another rebuild.. even not really built to start with though.. just might as well start a roster with a new coach.

 

[Rosegreen1]

Well Hartman should have been the HC. He had the much better resume. I am not surprised he left after one year.
The first year was promising, it was a huge upgrade over the dumpster fire that was TJ's lame duck year, but hardly worth extending, and I am one of the more pro KK guys on this board.
Chemistry? Meh. It seems like the guys get along just fine, there just isn't any structure. One of CKK's strength is building what at least seems like good family type of unit, especially since it is practically brand new each year.
They are playing better team ball because they have to without their ball dominant guard in there. They have to.

There’s been chemistry issues for 3 years, there is some this year as well. It was more apparent last year with the Boone twins vs everyone else and LuRod bailing. Didn’t look like CKK had any control over the team either.

It wasn’t good. Year 2 was a disaster as some one else pointed out.

 

[j. spilotro]

Well Hartman should have been the HC. He had the much better resume. I am not surprised he left after one year.
The first year was promising, it was a huge upgrade over the dumpster fire that was TJ's lame duck year, but hardly worth extending, and I am one of the more pro KK guys on this board.
Chemistry? Meh. It seems like the guys get along just fine, there just isn't any structure. One of CKK's strength is building what at least seems like good family type of unit, especially since it is practically brand new each year.
They are playing better team ball because they have to without their ball dominant guard in there. They have to.

I don’t think it’s as good as you think. Part of it is that with new faces every year, you’re hoping they can build within a few months. But the family thing, tightness … nah, don’t see it. I don’t see “hate” like Jhawk choking Katin, but I don’t see unity and I see poor body language. People talk it because it’s an impactful aspect, but people know it packs a punch and gives rope.

With football, I think you saw it under Odom. And even though I think we saw it, it wasn’t perfect.

It’s not an indictment on Kevin, I think it’s difficult without multi year guys. And while it’s not an indictment on Kevin, it’s a huge credit to Odom.

When you recruit as we do and have (single/two year players) the default is chemistry/unity is “ok”. If it’s going to drift one way or the other, it’s more likely south.

It’s not like this anymore, but when Kruger was here, even though he was more transfer heavy than most schools, the foundation was HS guys and plug with transfers and I think guys like Wink, Oscar, Kendall, Darger, JHawk, Ant, Carlos, Massamba, Terry, Rene, etc … they are what gives you unity/chemistry and it carries from year to year.

 

[RebelScrub]

I think it's clear Wade is going to be out of our ability to get. But there are at least a dozen coaches who would do better than KK at a slightly lower price. I thought we'd be out of luck after reading the article but I now think we'll get a new coach who'll do better. Most any coach who is currently successful at a lower program can come in an out coach CKK. My question is - will the boosters have enough faith in the new guy to ante up for NIL?. Without a good amount of NIL the coach won't really get a fair chance.

I

There’s been chemistry issues for 3 years, there is some this year as well. It was more apparent last year with the Boone twins vs everyone else and LuRod bailing. Didn’t look like CKK had any control over the team either.

It wasn’t good. Year 2 was a disaster as some one else pointed out.

They’re all disasters and now you have the two key pieces sitting out the entire year and are gonna get paid more at a P4 school…

Beyond shady and they’ll probably play together in a package deal at ISU