And RL- feel free to answer my question about what makes this rebuild so hard anytime you want.
Or don't.
Or don't.
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Turnarounds like that happen frequently. Want examples?
And LOL about the Mountain West being too tough a conference to pull off a quick turnaround. That's crazy.
Establishing arbitrary win totals for what equates to success and failure at this point is utterly pointless. Do it if you want but I don't see the value.
See my previous answer.
Great. So if he wins 10 in year one, then 15 in year two- but graduates everybody and has zero on the roster for year 3- you'll still be happy.
I won't. Neither will most people. Hopefully we'll never get to that point.
Stop with the "what will this do to our perception" crap. We're taking about a hypothetical two years from now with about a million potential influencing factors that neither of us can predict.
BS. We could have hired George Karl or any number of others if our AD wasn't who it was You're telling me after all this, firing an underperforming Menzies after two years would be the "final straw"? After that we'd be eternally blackballed? Doubt it.
I gave expectations. It just seems if they don't have hard win/loss totals attached to them by year they aren't detailed enough for you.
Which is weird.
And RL- feel free to answer my question about what makes this rebuild so hard anytime you want.
Or don't.
No chance am I going through the trouble to multi quote all of that so I will go from memory.
I didn't say the MW was too tough a conference, I said it was tougher. Was I lying? Don't twist my words to try and make your point.
I am saying you have to set expectations. How can you decided how good of a job he has done until you set them? You seem to be saying forget wins and losses, we will just take a look and see what we see. Not going to work like that, sorry.
Please explain to me what you mean by having no players on the roster year 3. Like, no players left? Or even 3? Haha! Yeah, I guess if somehow a mass exodus of players happens, then sure, fire him. Assuming something unheard of doesn't happen, he will get 3 years as long as there is improvement from 1 to 2.
I don't mean 1 or 2 games. If it is a 5 game improvement and we can assume there is still a roster, he will be here.
Because it is starting from the begging. End of story, can't be argued.
Tell me all these stories where coaches do a complete rebuild in 2 years.
Maybe you find 3 or even 5. Out of the hundreds of attempts you will find very few times it actually works. You will want to hold him to a one in a hundred chance?
It's just common sense.
It's not common sense. Its you making up excuses but giving very few reasons to support why its so much harder to turn things around here than everywhere else.
There are plenty of examples of quick turnarounds at places with less going for them than Menzies has here. Musselman did it in the MW last year. Guys like Beard, Steve Woj at Marquette and the guy at USC jump right to mind. If I can think of 4 right off hand there must be plenty of others.
The only real downside to this "rebuild" for Menzies, having only 2-3 returning players, represents a both challenge and an opportunity. He has minutes available RIGHT NOW at a big name school with awesome facilities. Who wouldnt want to sell that in the biggest transfer era in history?
So again, I ask, other than not having a stockpile of someone else's players, why should it be harder for Menzies than those other guys I mentioned? Pretty sure they didnt inherit talent either.
I didn't twist anything, but you;re clearly walking it back. The MW isn't any harder to pull off a quick turnaround than any other mid-major league. Musselman didn't seem to have any problem with it last year.
Im saying you don't, because its stupid. Because expectations can and will change between now and whatever is the end of your hypothetical evaluation period. Stop obsessing over this.
So any decline year over year and hes gone, right? How about 20 wins in year one (LOL) and 17 in year two?
See how ridiculous this game is?
You didn't twist anything? What did you do then? The print is above, you can't lie now.
All I said from the beggining is if he shows marked improvement from seasons 1 to 2, he will be here for 3.
Barring any unforeseen circumstances that is just a fact. You are going to have to get used to it.
Wow. Did any of those guys start fresh?
If you don't understand how hard it is to put together a winning basketball team in 2 years I am not going to convince you.
Its you making up excuses but giving very few reasons to support why its so much harder to turn things around here than everywhere else.
So again, I ask, other than not having a stockpile of someone else's players, why should it be harder for Menzies than those other guys I mentioned? Pretty sure they didnt inherit talent either.
Simple deflection and that's not the question and no one has said he was a "great hire". That question will not be answered for 2-4 years. But you feel he is a terrible hire because of his record against top 25 programs and in the ncaa tournament as a 12-15 seeds playing Indiana, Michigan State and Kansas and teams from power conferences. That's your argument and that's the standard you hold CMM is it not?
You don't factor in the WAC is low major and nonetheless you feel Menzies is mediocre in performance as a coach because he can't beat Michigan State and Tom Izzo in the ncaa's! Did you really expect NMSU to defeat Michigan State, Indiana or Kansas or even SDSU in the ncaa's? We know Menzie's teams did very well in the WAC. The fair question as to performance against the powers conference schools, top 25 and in the ncaa's would be how did they perform? Did Menzies teams compete and fight or roll over against the elite programs of college basketball? Did his cast of lower level players play hard and not give up for their coach? Did they have toughness? Where they well prepared or did Izzo, Crean, Fisher and Self simply out coach Menzies That's what I want to know before classifying Menzies as a terrible hire because there are quite a few coaches who did not meet your standard while coaching at lower level d-1 program but have done pretty well after taking over major programs.
He's our coach, I'll suck it up like I had to.suck it up for Rice.
Menzies was one of the top recruiters in college basketball before he went to NMST.
NMST was an easier sale before the WAC was torn apart. Now it's just a hole. Surprised he won at all.
If Menzies hires the right staff he'll win at UNLV. He's a great recruiter and now he has the tools to get the kids that he could never come close to landing at NMST. He will get his revenge on NM and Noodles.
We will out recruit the MWC; the question is will the coaching be there?.
Nice postHe's our coach, I'll suck it up like I had to.suck it up for Rice.
Menzies was one of the top recruiters in college basketball before he went to NMST.
NMST was an easier sale before the WAC was torn apart. Now it's just a hole. Surprised he won at all.
If Menzies hires the right staff he'll win at UNLV. He's a great recruiter and now he has the tools to get the kids that he could never come close to landing at NMST. He will get his revenge on NM and Noodles.
We will out recruit the MWC; the question is will the coaching be there?.
You're such a weirdo. Nobody is even debating that. At no point.
And please don't ever call me a liar again. That's rude. You were the one having trouble articulating your point, not me. You tried to use the fact that the MW is slightly more difficult than Beard's old league as justification for your grander point, that a quick turnaround isn't realistic. You failed.
While we're on the subject of turnarounds, here's a little walk down memory lane. Seems sometimes if you hire a good coach you don't necessarily have to be terrible for all that long... Good to know.
Billie Gillespe, Jim Obrien, Rich Majarus, Tom Penders, Mike Anderson, Tony Bennett, Larry Eustachy even gets some love.
Top 10 Biggest Turnarounds in NCAA Basketball
POSTED ON 05.17, 2013
1 of 11
http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/turnarounds_ncaa_basketball/ohio_state_1999.html?state=stop
I thank you for posting that article and proving my point.
It happens, very rarely. And you can't hold a new coach to those standards.
You're such a weirdo. Nobody is even debating that. At no point.
Deal. All I ask in return is that you don't lie from now on.
Here is what I said
"What Beard did last year is unheard of, that is why. Plus it is in a tougher conference"
Here is what you said.
"And LOL about the Mountain West being too tough a conference to pull off a quick turnaround. That's crazy"
You twisted my words like I said.
Dense. Very dense.
Those were the 10 best of all time. There are plenty more examples of guys who managed to do a really good job of quick turnaround without cracking that list. I figured that was implied. Clearly over your head.
Keep walking it backward. Your obvious implication was that Beard's success wasn't a good comparison because the MW is a tougher league. It was a dumb statement.
I think we've spent enough time here.
Don't be "that guy" that argues and then hides behind someone. Not cool.Name caller!
Get em BC!
Don't be "that guy" that argues and then hides behind someone. Not cool..
I meant that you have to be mature and "walk away" as well. I'm not going to referee your little pillow fight here.Surprises me none. Fits like a glove.
If a program fires a coach midseason for no reason other than performance, the next coach has to have a minimum expectation of doing better. I (and I hope many others) will hold him to improve on the 18-15 and 7th place conference finish. You can't fire a coach like we did and not demand improvement. Period.
Don't be "that guy" that argues and then hides behind someone. Not cool.
Both of you knock this off. Holy crap! I don't read on the Tark board right now since there's too much so I don't know your history together (nor do I care). I just suggest you two put each other on ignore or behave like adults. That or you can both get some time off if you'd like.
I meant that you have to be mature and "walk away" as well. I'm not going to referee your little pillow fight here.
Is it mother issues?
Or were you bullied alot?
You want some time off? I have no problem giving you a week to collect your thoughts.
I told you I don't read these posts much because there's too much here and on Conf. board. I don't know the history and I don't care.
I also know exactly who I am. I'm the one who will give you a week to think about it if you don't watch it.
Remind me in one week to lift his ban...Good god, lighten up francis.
Pretty sure he was messing with you.
Remind me in one week to lift his ban...