Menzies and UNLV Match made in Heaven...read it here

[Mjs_702]

And RL- feel free to answer my question about what makes this rebuild so hard anytime you want.

Or don't.

 

[manic water]

Bottom line: Menzies is a mediocre hire from an incompetent administration. UNLV is a program with tremendous potential but unfulfilled potential doesn't last forever, eventually it is replaced by regret and longing.

 

[rebelluver]

Turnarounds like that happen frequently. Want examples?

And LOL about the Mountain West being too tough a conference to pull off a quick turnaround. That's crazy.



Establishing arbitrary win totals for what equates to success and failure at this point is utterly pointless. Do it if you want but I don't see the value.



See my previous answer.



Great. So if he wins 10 in year one, then 15 in year two- but graduates everybody and has zero on the roster for year 3- you'll still be happy.

I won't. Neither will most people. Hopefully we'll never get to that point.



Stop with the "what will this do to our perception" crap. We're taking about a hypothetical two years from now with about a million potential influencing factors that neither of us can predict.



BS. We could have hired George Karl or any number of others if our AD wasn't who it was You're telling me after all this, firing an underperforming Menzies after two years would be the "final straw"? After that we'd be eternally blackballed? Doubt it.

No chance am I going through the trouble to multi quote all of that so I will go from memory.

I didn't say the MW was too tough a conference, I said it was tougher. Was I lying? Don't twist my words to try and make your point.

I am saying you have to set expectations. How can you decided how good of a job he has done until you set them? You seem to be saying forget wins and losses, we will just take a look and see what we see. Not going to work like that, sorry.

Please explain to me what you mean by having no players on the roster year 3. Like, no players left? Or even 3? Haha! Yeah, I guess if somehow a mass exodus of players happens, then sure, fire him. Assuming something unheard of doesn't happen, he will get 3 years as long as there is improvement from 1 to 2.

I don't mean 1 or 2 games. If it is a 5 game improvement and we can assume there is still a roster, he will be here.

 

[rebelluver]

"We could have had George Karl or any number of others"...

Except you have zero evidence to support that. We got turned down by everybody! It is hard for you to accept that you were wrong in the beggining. We are not a Power 5 job and have no money.

It wasn't just the AD. We had bad luck timing wise and got rolled over by any power 5 team we went up against.

 

[rebelluver]

I gave expectations. It just seems if they don't have hard win/loss totals attached to them by year they aren't detailed enough for you.

Which is weird.

No you don't. Expectations aren't something you hold in your mind until the time is right.

 

[rebelluver]

And RL- feel free to answer my question about what makes this rebuild so hard anytime you want.

Or don't.

Because it is starting from the begging. End of story, can't be argued.

Tell me all these stories where coaches do a complete rebuild in 2 years.

Maybe you find 3 or even 5. Out of the hundreds of attempts you will find very few times it actually works. You will want to hold him to a one in a hundred chance?

It's just common sense.

 

[Mjs_702]

No chance am I going through the trouble to multi quote all of that so I will go from memory.

I didn't say the MW was too tough a conference, I said it was tougher. Was I lying? Don't twist my words to try and make your point.

I didn't twist anything, but you;re clearly walking it back. The MW isn't any harder to pull off a quick turnaround than any other mid-major league. Musselman didn't seem to have any problem with it last year.

I am saying you have to set expectations. How can you decided how good of a job he has done until you set them? You seem to be saying forget wins and losses, we will just take a look and see what we see. Not going to work like that, sorry.

Im saying you don't, because its stupid. Because expectations can and will change between now and whatever is the end of your hypothetical evaluation period. Stop obsessing over this.

Please explain to me what you mean by having no players on the roster year 3. Like, no players left? Or even 3? Haha! Yeah, I guess if somehow a mass exodus of players happens, then sure, fire him. Assuming something unheard of doesn't happen, he will get 3 years as long as there is improvement from 1 to 2.

I don't mean 1 or 2 games. If it is a 5 game improvement and we can assume there is still a roster, he will be here.

So any decline year over year and hes gone, right? How about 20 wins in year one (LOL) and 17 in year two?

See how ridiculous this game is?

 

[Mjs_702]

Because it is starting from the begging. End of story, can't be argued.

Tell me all these stories where coaches do a complete rebuild in 2 years.

Maybe you find 3 or even 5. Out of the hundreds of attempts you will find very few times it actually works. You will want to hold him to a one in a hundred chance?

It's just common sense.

It's not common sense. Its you making up excuses but giving very few reasons to support why its so much harder to turn things around here than everywhere else.

There are plenty of examples of quick turnarounds at places with less going for them than Menzies has here. Musselman did it in the MW last year. Guys like Beard, Steve Woj at Marquette and the guy at USC jump right to mind. If I can think of 4 right off hand there must be plenty of others.

The only real downside to this "rebuild" for Menzies, having only 2-3 returning players, represents a both challenge and an opportunity. He has minutes available RIGHT NOW at a big name school with awesome facilities. Who wouldnt want to sell that in the biggest transfer era in history?

So again, I ask, other than not having a stockpile of someone else's players, why should it be harder for Menzies than those other guys I mentioned? Pretty sure they didnt inherit talent either.

 

[rebelluver]

It's not common sense. Its you making up excuses but giving very few reasons to support why its so much harder to turn things around here than everywhere else.

There are plenty of examples of quick turnarounds at places with less going for them than Menzies has here. Musselman did it in the MW last year. Guys like Beard, Steve Woj at Marquette and the guy at USC jump right to mind. If I can think of 4 right off hand there must be plenty of others.

The only real downside to this "rebuild" for Menzies, having only 2-3 returning players, represents a both challenge and an opportunity. He has minutes available RIGHT NOW at a big name school with awesome facilities. Who wouldnt want to sell that in the biggest transfer era in history?

So again, I ask, other than not having a stockpile of someone else's players, why should it be harder for Menzies than those other guys I mentioned? Pretty sure they didnt inherit talent either.

Wow. Did any of those guys start fresh?

If you don't understand how hard it is to put together a winning basketball team in 2 years I am not going to convince you.

 

[rebelluver]

I didn't twist anything, but you;re clearly walking it back. The MW isn't any harder to pull off a quick turnaround than any other mid-major league. Musselman didn't seem to have any problem with it last year.



Im saying you don't, because its stupid. Because expectations can and will change between now and whatever is the end of your hypothetical evaluation period. Stop obsessing over this.



So any decline year over year and hes gone, right? How about 20 wins in year one (LOL) and 17 in year two?

See how ridiculous this game is?

You didn't twist anything? What did you do then? The print is above, you can't lie now.

All I said from the beggining is if he shows marked improvement from seasons 1 to 2, he will be here for 3.

Barring any unforeseen circumstances that is just a fact. You are going to have to get used to it.

 

[Mjs_702]

You didn't twist anything? What did you do then? The print is above, you can't lie now.

All I said from the beggining is if he shows marked improvement from seasons 1 to 2, he will be here for 3.

Barring any unforeseen circumstances that is just a fact. You are going to have to get used to it.

You're such a weirdo. Nobody is even debating that. At no point.

And please don't ever call me a liar again. That's rude. You were the one having trouble articulating your point, not me. You tried to use the fact that the MW is slightly more difficult than Beard's old league as justification for your grander point, that a quick turnaround isn't realistic. You failed.

 

[Mjs_702]

Wow. Did any of those guys start fresh?

If you don't understand how hard it is to put together a winning basketball team in 2 years I am not going to convince you.

No... they all inherited mountains of talent...
I think Beard brought back three whole players.

If you cant understand that good coaches turn programs around quickly all the time then the best I can do is provide you a few examples. If you still don't believe it happens, I guess I don't care.

Its you making up excuses but giving very few reasons to support why its so much harder to turn things around here than everywhere else.

So again, I ask, other than not having a stockpile of someone else's players, why should it be harder for Menzies than those other guys I mentioned? Pretty sure they didnt inherit talent either.

 

[Bullmastiff 1]

Simple deflection and that's not the question and no one has said he was a "great hire". That question will not be answered for 2-4 years. But you feel he is a terrible hire because of his record against top 25 programs and in the ncaa tournament as a 12-15 seeds playing Indiana, Michigan State and Kansas and teams from power conferences. That's your argument and that's the standard you hold CMM is it not?

You don't factor in the WAC is low major and nonetheless you feel Menzies is mediocre in performance as a coach because he can't beat Michigan State and Tom Izzo in the ncaa's! Did you really expect NMSU to defeat Michigan State, Indiana or Kansas or even SDSU in the ncaa's? We know Menzie's teams did very well in the WAC. The fair question as to performance against the powers conference schools, top 25 and in the ncaa's would be how did they perform? Did Menzies teams compete and fight or roll over against the elite programs of college basketball? Did his cast of lower level players play hard and not give up for their coach? Did they have toughness? Where they well prepared or did Izzo, Crean, Fisher and Self simply out coach Menzies That's what I want to know before classifying Menzies as a terrible hire because there are quite a few coaches who did not meet your standard while coaching at lower level d-1 program but have done pretty well after taking over major programs.

When did I say he was a terrible hire just because of his record vs top 25? It is a factor in why I am not overly impressed with the hire. It is not the reason, in fact it is the stat that bothers me the least. I would like to see a signature win in there somewhere, but understand the obstacles of being a low major and scheduling. His record in the NCAAs doesn't bother me all that much either. I find his poor record vs Mountain West teams more of a red flag.The talent gap there is less substantial.

My biggest issue is, the complete lack of interest from other schools. Especially when you consider the coaches he has worked for and their endorsements.

To me that says a lot.

I do like that he has been consistent in his conference. That is a positive for me. I like that he has made the tourney 5 times regardless of the level of competition.

I am also big on value. What am I getting for my money.

In my opinion we landed a coach we could have had for 250k less earlier in the process. If you felt he was the guy all along and are not concerned with the opinion of your fan base (which obviously they are not) you hire him day 1. You save money, you can attempt to hold onto incoming recruits and you may be able to stem the tide of guys looking to transfer.

I weigh all the positives and all the negatives, and in my opinion, I think he was a bad hire. This doesn't change the fact I will still go to games and support he and the team. I won't be calling for his head if he struggles for a couple years. He deserves 4 years like any other coach.

I can be unhappy with the hire and still support he and the team. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[tarkaniancourt...nm]

He's our coach, I'll suck it up like I had to.suck it up for Rice.

Menzies was one of the top recruiters in college basketball before he went to NMST.
NMST was an easier sale before the WAC was torn apart. Now it's just a hole. Surprised he won at all.

If Menzies hires the right staff he'll win at UNLV. He's a great recruiter and now he has the tools to get the kids that he could never come close to landing at NMST. He will get his revenge on NM and Noodles.

We will out recruit the MWC; the question is will the coaching be there?.

 

[Bullmastiff 1]

He's our coach, I'll suck it up like I had to.suck it up for Rice.

Menzies was one of the top recruiters in college basketball before he went to NMST.
NMST was an easier sale before the WAC was torn apart. Now it's just a hole. Surprised he won at all.

If Menzies hires the right staff he'll win at UNLV. He's a great recruiter and now he has the tools to get the kids that he could never come close to landing at NMST. He will get his revenge on NM and Noodles.

We will out recruit the MWC; the question is will the coaching be there?.

Sounds eerily familiar..

 

[REBELROGER]

He's our coach, I'll suck it up like I had to.suck it up for Rice.

Menzies was one of the top recruiters in college basketball before he went to NMST.
NMST was an easier sale before the WAC was torn apart. Now it's just a hole. Surprised he won at all.

If Menzies hires the right staff he'll win at UNLV. He's a great recruiter and now he has the tools to get the kids that he could never come close to landing at NMST. He will get his revenge on NM and Noodles.

We will out recruit the MWC; the question is will the coaching be there?.

Nice post

 

[Mjs_702]

While we're on the subject of turnarounds, here's a little walk down memory lane. Seems sometimes if you hire a good coach you don't necessarily have to be terrible for all that long... Good to know.

Billie Gillespe, Jim Obrien, Rich Majarus, Tom Penders, Mike Anderson, Tony Bennett, Larry Eustachy even gets some love.

Top 10 Biggest Turnarounds in NCAA Basketball
POSTED ON 05.17, 2013
1 of 11
http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/turnarounds_ncaa_basketball/ohio_state_1999.html?state=stop

 

[rebelluver]

You're such a weirdo. Nobody is even debating that. At no point.

And please don't ever call me a liar again. That's rude. You were the one having trouble articulating your point, not me. You tried to use the fact that the MW is slightly more difficult than Beard's old league as justification for your grander point, that a quick turnaround isn't realistic. You failed.

Deal. All I ask in return is that you don't lie from now on.

Here is what I said

"What Beard did last year is unheard of, that is why. Plus it is in a tougher conference"

Here is what you said.

"And LOL about the Mountain West being too tough a conference to pull off a quick turnaround. That's crazy"

You twisted my words like I said.

 

[rebelluver]

While we're on the subject of turnarounds, here's a little walk down memory lane. Seems sometimes if you hire a good coach you don't necessarily have to be terrible for all that long... Good to know.

Billie Gillespe, Jim Obrien, Rich Majarus, Tom Penders, Mike Anderson, Tony Bennett, Larry Eustachy even gets some love.

Top 10 Biggest Turnarounds in NCAA Basketball
POSTED ON 05.17, 2013
1 of 11
http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/turnarounds_ncaa_basketball/ohio_state_1999.html?state=stop

I thank you for posting that article and proving my point.

It happens, very rarely. And you can't hold a new coach to those standards.

 

[Mjs_702]

I thank you for posting that article and proving my point.

It happens, very rarely. And you can't hold a new coach to those standards.

Dense. Very dense.

Those were the 10 best of all time. There are plenty more examples of guys who managed to do a really good job of quick turnaround without cracking that list. I figured that was implied. Clearly over your head.

 

[rebelluver]

You're such a weirdo. Nobody is even debating that. At no point.

You are.

Unbelievable.

 

[Mjs_702]

Deal. All I ask in return is that you don't lie from now on.

Here is what I said

"What Beard did last year is unheard of, that is why. Plus it is in a tougher conference"

Here is what you said.

"And LOL about the Mountain West being too tough a conference to pull off a quick turnaround. That's crazy"

You twisted my words like I said.

Keep walking it backward. Your obvious implication was that Beard's success wasn't a good comparison because the MW is a tougher league. It was a dumb statement.

I think we've spent enough time here.

 

[rebelluver]

Dense. Very dense.

Those were the 10 best of all time. There are plenty more examples of guys who managed to do a really good job of quick turnaround without cracking that list. I figured that was implied. Clearly over your head.

Name caller!

Get em BC!

 

[rebelluver]

Keep walking it backward. Your obvious implication was that Beard's success wasn't a good comparison because the MW is a tougher league. It was a dumb statement.

I think we've spent enough time here.

Walk backwards? All I did was provide exact quotes! LOL!

 

[bcvegaspt]

Name caller!

Get em BC!

Don't be "that guy" that argues and then hides behind someone. Not cool.

Both of you knock this off. Holy crap! I don't read on the Tark board right now since there's too much so I don't know your history together (nor do I care). I just suggest you two put each other on ignore or behave like adults. That or you can both get some time off if you'd like.

 

[Mjs_702]

Don't be "that guy" that argues and then hides behind someone. Not cool..

Surprises me none. Fits like a glove.

 

[bcvegaspt]

Surprises me none. Fits like a glove.

I meant that you have to be mature and "walk away" as well. I'm not going to referee your little pillow fight here.

 

[2ndGenRebel]

If a program fires a coach midseason for no reason other than performance, the next coach has to have a minimum expectation of doing better. I (and I hope many others) will hold him to improve on the 18-15 and 7th place conference finish. You can't fire a coach like we did and not demand improvement. Period.

 

[Mjs_702]

If a program fires a coach midseason for no reason other than performance, the next coach has to have a minimum expectation of doing better. I (and I hope many others) will hold him to improve on the 18-15 and 7th place conference finish. You can't fire a coach like we did and not demand improvement. Period.

Careful. When I said the needle needs to be pointing up at the end of year 2 rebelluver threw a fit because my expectations were too high. He thinks that kind of turnaround is waaaayyyyy too much to ask.

You may have just made his head explode.

And FTR, I don't care how many games he wins next year. Doesn't matter at all. Ill start caring about wins and losses in year 2.

 

[rebelluver]

Don't be "that guy" that argues and then hides behind someone. Not cool.

Both of you knock this off. Holy crap! I don't read on the Tark board right now since there's too much so I don't know your history together (nor do I care). I just suggest you two put each other on ignore or behave like adults. That or you can both get some time off if you'd like.

You really think you are somebody that you are not.

You think I am hiding behind a moderator in a message board? You think you are far more important than you are.

That was a complete joke and I think you know that.

In other words take your threats and.. Well you know

 

[Mjs_702]

Good god, lighten up francis.
Pretty sure he was messing with you.

 

[rebelluver]

I meant that you have to be mature and "walk away" as well. I'm not going to referee your little pillow fight here.

Is it mother issues?

Or were you bullied alot?

 

[bcvegaspt]

Is it mother issues?

Or were you bullied alot?

You want some time off? I have no problem giving you a week to collect your thoughts.

I told you I don't read these posts much because there's too much here and on Conf. board. I don't know the history and I don't care.

I also know exactly who I am. I'm the one who will give you a week to think about it if you don't watch it.

 

[rebelluver]

You want some time off? I have no problem giving you a week to collect your thoughts.

I told you I don't read these posts much because there's too much here and on Conf. board. I don't know the history and I don't care.

I also know exactly who I am. I'm the one who will give you a week to think about it if you don't watch it.

I already made it clear what to do with the tough guy moderator stuff.

 

[Mjs_702]

 

[bcvegaspt]

Good god, lighten up francis.
Pretty sure he was messing with you.

Remind me in one week to lift his ban...

 

[Mjs_702]

Remind me in one week to lift his ban...

Sure thing.

I wont forget, promise.