UNLV: America’s Next Football Powerhouse?
By: Brock Vierra UNLV made big news in the world of college football when it announced that it would be
teamnbsmedia.com
UNLV Football article!
- Thread starter 76RunninRebel
- Start date
teamnbsmedia.com
If Coach O can improve both the offensive and defensive lines, UNLV will be well on it’s way to being a formidable program for the Big 12 or Pac whatever in the near future!
Any article that suggests Rebel football will ever be a football Powerhouse is both clickbait and delusional. I'm speaking from a historical perspective, but I just don't see it.
Hey man the Cubs won a World Series, so we have seen the impossible happen!
I saw the Red Sox won it first World Series in 2007 since 1918 or something like that by the same guy that helped the Cubs win their first WS since before Teddy Roosevelt tenure...
Theo Epstein should be enshrined in the Hall of Fame in baseball
2004 They won it 4-0 vs Cards. Got to get it if you're a Sox fan.
There was a window of opportunity around the Sanford era.
Around the time schools like Utah and TCU went all in on football.
UNLV never had that one big booster or enough small boosters that came together at the same time and said it's now or never.
There's a few reasons why.
Medical school wasn't done.
There simply wasn't that T Boone Pickens type money guy tied to UNLV.
Basketball was still king here. Football was always the step brother.
I have no inside info on this, but it's always felt like from the outside looking in that UNLV has some boosters and if they were ever to pool it together there might have been some changes made. Unfortunately its felt like if one didn't get their way they were taking their ball and going home.
U r very shortsighted, Sold out Allegent Stadium for the Pac12 championship says otherwise. Literally EVERYTHING is in place for us to be a Powerhouse besides being in a Power 5 conference and the money that comes with it.and the higher recruiting power that follows. This is VEGAS it has a huge drawing power. If any Power 5 conferences wants to build their brand to even higher levels they would be crazy not to include us.
Utah went all in on football starting in like 92. The BYU dominance of the 80s got to them. McBride was finally given the green light to bring in players that were seen to have “character flaws” and also started winning the poly-wars with BYU. The best thing that could have happened to Utah was the Crowton era at BYU. It sent the Cougars backwards enough to where winning 10 some seasons with Bronco was still not enough.
I always associated their run with Urban as the moment they really started to invest, since it was a few years after that they got the Pac 12 invite.
But it makes sense that the groundwork for that started even earlier.
Perhaps we aren't agreeing on the definition of Powerhouse. For me it is a program with a history of success, continued (year after year) top 25 rankings, January bowl games, and annual top 25 recruiting classes. I think we may get to the point that we have success every few years but that isn't a Powerhouse. I see it as the difference between Alabama and Missouri.
1. How many Powerhouse football programs don't have their own stadium?
2. How many Powerhouse football programs have risen from total obscurity in the past 20 years ( not programs that rise for a few years and then fade back where they rightfully belong)?
3. How many Powerhouse football programs play in a city that has multiple pro sports?
4. How many powerhouse football programs have less than a 3 million population within 100 miles of the stadium?
The biggest dreamer, the one always in fantasyland … is calling somebody else shortsighted?
Vegas as a town is big time these days, top 30 population center and TV market.
But UNLV and Vegas aren't as inexorably linked as they once were. Men's basketball is struggling to outdraw the Aces despite the best start to the season since Dave Rice. UNLV FB is not outdrawing the numbers that we had going to the XFL to se He Hate Me--and that was at the Silver Bowl.
The big conferences see potential, but they also have to weight that potential with current data points--and when you barely can fill a reduced capacity stadium at 50% announced (22.1k a game announced, the actual number couldn't have been more than 17 a game), being unable to fill your lower section in your aging 40 year old basketball arena--they see that too. Vegas has always had a TON of places to spend your entertainment dollar, but now they also have tons of SPORTS to spend that dollar on.
If we were putting 35K butts in the seats for UNLV football games and 12k for basketball we'd be a lot more alluring to the big conferences. But they don't see a sold out Pac12 title game and think of the potential Vegas adds to that...they're already GETTING that right now without us in the conference. Because it's not just about the market, it's about the market penetration. That's something that we only get at UNLV now with success--and even with mild success it's not enough. The town is filled with savvy sports fans from all over. That's why this 11-1 UNLV basketball team is struggling to draw 7k announced (really closer to 5k).
I don't mind a little polyanna-ing. I really don't. I think it's better than apathy or doomsayers, but I sort of have to be grounded in reality. And the reality is that right now our school offers more academically than athletically, and big schools can get all the perks of Vegas without having to invite us to the party because it's how the town makes money.
But UNLV and Vegas aren't as inexorably linked as they once were. Men's basketball is struggling to outdraw the Aces despite the best start to the season since Dave Rice. UNLV FB is not outdrawing the numbers that we had going to the XFL to se He Hate Me--and that was at the Silver Bowl.
The big conferences see potential, but they also have to weight that potential with current data points--and when you barely can fill a reduced capacity stadium at 50% announced (22.1k a game announced, the actual number couldn't have been more than 17 a game), being unable to fill your lower section in your aging 40 year old basketball arena--they see that too. Vegas has always had a TON of places to spend your entertainment dollar, but now they also have tons of SPORTS to spend that dollar on.
If we were putting 35K butts in the seats for UNLV football games and 12k for basketball we'd be a lot more alluring to the big conferences. But they don't see a sold out Pac12 title game and think of the potential Vegas adds to that...they're already GETTING that right now without us in the conference. Because it's not just about the market, it's about the market penetration. That's something that we only get at UNLV now with success--and even with mild success it's not enough. The town is filled with savvy sports fans from all over. That's why this 11-1 UNLV basketball team is struggling to draw 7k announced (really closer to 5k).
I don't mind a little polyanna-ing. I really don't. I think it's better than apathy or doomsayers, but I sort of have to be grounded in reality. And the reality is that right now our school offers more academically than athletically, and big schools can get all the perks of Vegas without having to invite us to the party because it's how the town makes money.
I always love reading how UNLV doesn't have their own stadium? Most college football teams do not have their own stadium, and instead play in a stadium that one way or another was partially paid for by tax payer funds. The Allegiant stadium is also ultimately owned by the tax payers (Las Vegas Stadium Authority with the Raiders on a long term lease to operate that runs out in 30 years.
SDSU has a $310 million revenue bond funded by tax payers to finance their new stadium
CSU has $239 million in revenue bond funded by tax payers to finance their new stadium
These are the only three stadiums (including UNLV) that have been built from scratch in about the last 40-50 years. Most of the other stadiums have including numerous small expansions. The simple fact is that most universities do not have the funding without putting out bonds, and the bonds are ultimately the responsibility of the tax payers for public schools.
SDSU has a $310 million revenue bond funded by tax payers to finance their new stadium
CSU has $239 million in revenue bond funded by tax payers to finance their new stadium
These are the only three stadiums (including UNLV) that have been built from scratch in about the last 40-50 years. Most of the other stadiums have including numerous small expansions. The simple fact is that most universities do not have the funding without putting out bonds, and the bonds are ultimately the responsibility of the tax payers for public schools.
I think you meant since Dave Rice was playing at UNLV not when he was coaching here…
It is a hard call on exactly what has caused the huge drop off in attendance for basketball over the last few years with it being a combination of covid, professional teams coming to Las Vegas, lack of success, etc.
In regards to football, the professional teams had very little to do with the drop off from around 30K per game (at the peak) to around 15K and currently back to around 22-23K. Over three decades of losing has a lot more to do with the loss of fans, which appears to be ready to turn the corner now that UNLV has actually put up the funds to move the program to the top of the MWC. Just take a look at the number of tickets already sold or reserved for past season ticket holders, and you can see that the numbers are already past last season with 5 sections already sold out. I truly believe that a single solid winning season would do wonders to the attendance, and multiple winning seasons would quickly put the attendance at the top of the MWC. I do wonder how much attendance was hurt by the one covid season that allowed limited attendance?
In regards to basketball, it is a lot hard to figure out how a program could drop from over 11.5K in 2016 to over 10K in 2017 and 2018, 8.6K in 2019, to 4,288 in 2020, 2021 was a covid year, and 2022 was 4019. I feel that Menzies and TJ did most of the destruction to the attendance with Menzies barely above 50% wins and TJ below 50% even while playing an extremely week out of conference schedule set up for easy wins (unfortunately this years out of conference schedule is weak and must be improved). It will take a lot of work and consistent winning over the next 5-10 years to put attendance back up towards the top of the NCAA if even possible.
Nope, I meant exactly what I said. Though if you're stating just on winning percentage then that's true...but I am weighting for schedule.
2011-12 Dave Rice got through Non-conference at 16-2 with wins against #1 UNC and #19 Illinois on neutral courts, and our losses were on the road against eventual 5 seed Wichita State who finished the season ranked 18, and #14 Wisconsin who was in the sweet 16.
2012-13 non conference finished 13 and 2 with wins against Iowa State (eventually 10 seed 2nd round tourney team), Cal who was a 12 seed we had to play basically at home in the tourney and a 2nd round tourney team and our loses were against Oregon at home (12 seed and sweet 16 team) and UNC on the road.
I would take EITHER of those pre-seasons in a half heartbeat over this season.
I think I agree, if you win butts will fill seats. And if you can't win consistently if you put an exciting product on the field you might still get some numbers for football.
Covid hurt the town and sports attendance all over, but I think if you put together strong winning seasons during those off years you would have recovered quickly. Look at any program that's 'big time' across the country and they were dying to get back into the stadiums after covid even with similar vaccination protocols in some of them.
The fact of the matter is that Football took a step back in on-the-field quality under Arroyo from Sanchez. And most honest people around here would tell you Sanchez was over his head with running a program. And it took Arroyo 3 years to basically end up in the same place.
Basketball I think has been bleeding for a few years of poor success...but even during rough season under Rollie/the 3 headed Grg/Cle/Howie/early Bayno we still had much better student participation.
There's a disconnect somewhere between student/community buy in and the programs, I think it's undeniable at this point. But the town will come out for a winner, especially at Allegiant. The T&M I don't think has the same newness draw and you'll really have to be successful for a few years to get the butts back in those seats. It's been 31 years since the championship and 10 years since we danced at all.
There is an easy way to determine who owns a stadium. Who alters their schedule when there are conflicts? The one that has to bend doesn't own the stadium.
I moved to Utah in 1989 and plan to share my perspective at a later time (a mad scramble to get ready before the Jewish sabbath starts in about two hours). I agree with many of the things that Reagan said. To put it in context, Utah was very opportunistic, taking advantage of academic improvements, major stadium renovations and other improvements associated with the Olympics, the airport, a growing city, McBride's efforts, Urban, etc. While later in time, UNLV is experiencing similar things, such as the new stadium medical school etc and needs to capitalize now. Kruger and Odom were good hires.
I think results, paired with VGK and their success. This was true prior to current inflation but more so now, people only have so much disposable income.
It seems VGK and Rebs play on the same night or a night apart quite a bit.
Figure minus away fans VGK gets 12k to 15k locals. Have to think 1k to 3k might hit up a Rebs game if there were no game conflict or VGK didn't exist. You put 3k more in the Thomas and Mack and the attendance numbers don't look nearly as bad.
Look this is Vegas we are the X FACTOR. There is a reason why Allegent Stadium is the most successful Stadium in the WORLD. If they want to "BUILD" their "BRAND" having UNLV in said conference would increase it multiple folds. Call it a investment. There are some terrible POWER 5 teams that never win a damn thing. Nobody is building a Powerhouse without POWER 5 inclusion anymore especially with the NIL outthere. We would be a TOP 40 team overnight if we get invited.
If adding Vegas would improve a conference's brand by multiple fold, we'd already have an SEC invite. Hell if Vegas added 10% to a conference's brand we'd have multiple P5 offers with lucrative revenue sharing as they would be in a bidding war.
So either every conference leadership is run by idiots, or a guy on an UNLV message board might be overestimating things.
So either every conference leadership is run by idiots, or a guy on an UNLV message board might be overestimating things.
yea because the higher ups get it right all the time. That's the shortsightednessi am talking about Those people are the same people that get scammed in a Ponzi scheme. Acting like half the Power 5 schools have Anything to offer is a joke. They are selling million dollar packages for F1 racing..No other place in the world could even come close to that. Vegas itself is a brand. If winning was as big as some of u make it out to be. There would be numerous teams kicked out. Every opposing fans would come to Vegas before they go anywhere else. Hence building their brand. Every scout, reporters ,other media and people that just like CFB would have their calendar circled to come here before anywhere else. Would bring excitement. That is also why Champion ship games are flocking to Vegas. I don't know how much more I have to explain the benefits . u can't name any REAL negatives that would prevent us from being accepted. Vegas has more to offer than at least half of Power 5 schools.
That's a bit of a false comparison. They people that run the big conferences don't make a ton of mistakes that take hundreds of millions off the table. You can point out where they've gambled like the BIG with Rutgers and it hasn't panned out athletically but they got the Eastern seaboard TV market they wanted in Jersey. These aren't the people falling for Ponzi schemes.
The $5 milliion Caeser's package is for 12 attendees over five nights, and it's a crazy luxurious package. It comes out to essentially 83k a day. Close is arguable, but it's at least 30% more expensive per guest per day then comparably expensive packages in Monte Carlo, Tokyo, and Paris.
Vegas is a brand, but it's NOT tied to UNLV athletics. You can have all Vegas has to offer without having to give UNLV one red cent. Just like all the conference tournaments and events are already doing. You're under the impression that UNLV is part of a package deal, but we're already selling the milk, and nobody is sending any extra hay to UNLV while they're doing it.
Getting into the club is the hard part, once you're in you STAY in. That's the way all American sports work. I agree that UNLV has an argument as good as any other G5 team if you combine facilities, academics, and athletics. Vegas has a nice population center and TV market, but UNLV doesn't have the penetration in that market. What happens once your in isn't as relevant as making sure you pass all the check marks to get into the VIP room. It seems you don't understand that.
Indianapolis sells out every BIG championship and tournament they host. Atlanta does the same with the SEC title game, etc etc. And those stadiums and towns while not Vegas and Allegiant have plenty of things to do for entertainment. When you talk to them a big chunk of those people couldn't afford to come to Vegas. So you're left with geographically offering the PAC12 a title game (tell me again, where is that held?) or the Big 12 who hold there championship in Arlington at Jerry world. Those place aren't Unicorns, but they're thoroughbreds. Sometimes in a race you'd rather have a thoroughbred.
Programs that travel well will travel better to Vegas, I won't argue that. But in the PAC12 there's not a ton of big travel fanbases.
I don't disagree that there are a lot of positives. You're making claims like inviting UNLV will make their product multiple times more valid, which you can't substantiate with anything other than your gut feeling. Generally, in logical discussion I don't have have to prove a negative, the person making the ostentatious claim has to support that with something other than circumstantial personal opinions.
I think you love UNLV and Vegas, maybe even more than me. But I don't think that makes you right here. You have a very optimistic view, and I'm not really here to try to take that way from more than help you understand why most people think you're more than a little over the top on your opinion.
At this point, I think you and I are at an impasse though--you won't back away from your unsupported claims, and I'm not going to buy into them. We can agree to disagree. I hope you have a Merry Christmas.
