KNee problems ? uuuhg ? Anybody have them? anybody heard of this guy? I know we have a couple PT's here...whatchathink ?
OT: kneesovertoesguy ?
- Thread starter rebelwithacause
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As a sports PT, you want to be careful with going to any trainer/ program with an injury. Not all knee pain pathlogies are the same. Hell, not every meniscus tear is the same.
Certain movements can be very helpful for one thing and very detrimental. Let alone form issues or compensatory patterns that you will likely not be aware of. And here's the fun part, most compensatory patterns not only steer the exercise away from what you are trying to accomplish, it often overloads something else you don't want to overload.
Again, I haven't had time to fully research this guy, but he probably has some helpful techniques. If you were more or less healthy without any issues I would say go for it. But if you are having knee problems I would at least go to some sort of medical professional first.
I blew out my knee a year and a half ago. Lateral MInicus tear - then when the swelling went down, I went back out on the basketball court to "test" my knee to see where I was at in ability - well I then tore my ACL "testing" it out. Luckily neither tear was too bad. The kneesovertoesguy always suggests seeing a medical professional first. It's intense strength and mobility training more suited for athletes, or those who are serious about putting in the time intensive process of restoring the strength and ability. Anyways long story short - my knee is more than fixed after a year of training his program- Im now jumping like crazy and touching the rim at 5'9 and 51 years old. So ...check out the kneesovertoes guy. A little secret ---- He has trained (and is currently training) a couple UNLV basketball players who have had knee problems. One of them may still on the team ; )
That's good, I will definitely check him out.
Just as a heads up for you. ACLs don't heal themselves, and only very rare mensicus tears do as well. Not a huge deal, but if you are technically "ACL deficient" meaning you will have more joint play in your knee. Strengthening can help with this to some degree, but there is a degree of passive stability that you are lacking that strengthening can't help.
In terms of straight plane exercises and training, that will not limit you at all, playing basketball, cutting, planting/twisting? That is a bit of a different story. The joint play in your knee will more likely chew up the rest of your healthy meniscus with those type of deficiencies. Not to mention a much higher risk of fully tearing the ACL as well. If playing in those type of sports is something you want to do, then fixing at least the ACL is worth considering. If you are just shooting around and play very casually, then that's a different story.
If you have confidence in your healthcare professional, then stay with them.
I don’t know this particular person, and I haven’t heard of them, but confidence in the healthcare professional’s ability is worth its weight in gold.
I’d trust DCut’s take since he appears to be familiar with this person.
I don’t know this particular person, and I haven’t heard of them, but confidence in the healthcare professional’s ability is worth its weight in gold.
I’d trust DCut’s take since he appears to be familiar with this person.
Thank you for your insight. I encourage you to check him out in depth. 20-30 years ago you'd tear an ACL and your career is over. Not so much these days. Ben Patrick (kneesovertoesguy) definitely challenges modern academia and text books -even probably what you were taught.
This guy is a trainer, not a PT or physician.
I'm not terribly familiar, I looked him up some, talked to our strength coach who knew of him some.
His schtick is breaking the stigma that knees sholud never go past the knee. Which I agree with to an extent.
However super deep single leg loads on compromised meniscii... that is playing with fire a bit.
Our Insitute is all about ACLs. The majority of research is heavily ACL biased. We are paired with one of the top knee surgeons in the country that does probably up to nearly 400 cases a year. As a group we are constantly self evaluating ACL rehab, testing theories, graft choices, aneathesia choices, functional testing principles etc.
I don't mind breaking stigmas with certain things. I probably am one of the more vocal therapists in our group when it comes to that. That's why I don't fully reject his main principle. I will tell you that the majority of therapists and surgeons would do exactly that at face value.
You just want to be careful. Just because you haven't irritated your knee with this type of program doesn't mean you can't. Also degenerative meniscus tears can happen without a pain response. So the lack of pain doesn't always mean everything in hunky dory.
But you can't argue with results from a strength/functional standpoint, I will give you that.
ooh no bro. You work.... or are "paired up" with surgeons?... eeeek I wouldn't expect you to like or agree with this dude at all. For me.....Personally, bro after a full year of intense training with this kneesovertoesguy, I DO NOT have to be careful. I play bball now all the time. full court - I twist - i jump - i run- i fall down-but I get right up. now remind you I am 51 years old, I play with HS college and kids. I play about 12-15 hrs a week - haven't had swelling or pain (or had to ice) in over 6 months. I like that you keep your mind open more than most PT's though. Thank you for your professional opinion though, I do appreciate your insight.
everything scales in his program. it's a slow approach, the first 12 weeks are ZERO weights,.. Personally took me months to get in those deep ranges just to do those single leg split squats - just body weight (as taught). Only after about 7 or 8 months did I add additional load on that compromised leg.
Depends on the situation.
For many, yes. Especially nowadays the lifespan is now 20, even 30 years.
But you have to treat the patient, not the imaging. The existance of OA, even "bone on bone" doesn't mean that the knee has to be replaced. If you can function, pain is controlled, you have good body mechanics/strength then why get it?
But if you knee pain and other impairments signficant inhibit your ability to do what you want to do. And you have tried in good faith to treat it conservatively with exercise, not just injections, then you probably should get it done.
I can talk knee rehab all day. Being "paired up" with top surgeons that produces a ton of research is not a bad thing. It generates ton of empirical data for research purposes. Our group aren't looking for reasons to do surgery, he is too busy as it is. They are really looking for reasons not to.
Not to crap on this guy, but ingorance isn't a good excuse. He does not have the training or the education to fully understand the inner workings of the knee. What structures that loaded in certain positions.
That being said, he has some valid points too. The pendulum has swing a bit too far conservative when it comes to rehab and exercise. Which is understandable, which as a trainer he is not vulnerable to malpractice lawsuits if injuries were to occur. Which people like us are succeptible to. So it makes sense.
RWAC, I am super happy you found a way to perform at the level that you do. That's great. I am going to try to look at more of his stuff (at least what isn't locked behind a paywall) to try to get some ideas for my own practice. I just think you should be aware at some of the risks, and to know that some level of new injury can occur, even without symptoms. Most chronic degeneration is exactly that. That is how people get a new knee or shoulder pain, they get it imaged, and it looks like it has been trashed for 3 years.
Stay active and show those young whippersnappers how it is done on the court.
Well I could provide you with some of that info you are looking for (without having to purchase anything) if you are serious about checking out what he does in depth. You'd be surprised how much the guy knows about knees. You'd be surprised how much I know about knees just from 1 year his training. I could talk knees and the inner workings of the knee all day !!
So seriously. If you want any of my contact info, please hit me up to convey some information to you. Literally you could customize exactly what you want to know, and I can covey that exact information to you. I have complete access to his entire library. I'm curious, If you could talk directly to Ben Patrick (kneesovertoesguy) what questions would you ask him ?
I had TKR on both last year, quite a journey- left knee in January and is above 95%. Right knee was done in May still a little stiff and is at 80%. Range of motion is great ( 120) in left and the right I still need lots of stretching 2-3 x a week and is at around 110
Therapy was brutal on right knee-
I think I was lucky with the left knee as therapy was very painless, used very little pain medication afterwards
Therapy was brutal on right knee-
I think I was lucky with the left knee as therapy was very painless, used very little pain medication afterwards
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