Menzies inherited a dumpster fire. This season was better than the last. As long as we see improvements things are good. He built nmsu he can rebuild us.
I dug up my old account to send this message.
- Thread starter UnlvRebelde
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I'm not optimistic. He recruits the same weak minded players Rice did. We need tough players that understand the MWC grind.
I think the way the players are coddled in high school and AAU make majority of the players weak minded. You can’t teach heart and toughness.
A statement like this is totally premature. He hasnt been here long enough to know. All it takes is one solid class and youll be singing a different tune
Winning their conference and making ncaa tournaments
You and me both... That's why it's so hard to believe we as a fanbase are unrealistic in expectations. I mean, we get blue blood type recruits. Love, to also get SOME results.
Thats realistic expectations for our coach. He did it at nmsu he can do it here. All i want is to be nationally relevant.
NMSU is not nationally relevant. They played in an even weaker conference than the MWC and he never won a tournament game. Menzies has proven that he can do pretty well against really horrible teams. Consistently. That’s about it.
Fact is, expectations were rightfully low for this season and the team didn’t even meet those. Regardless of what he inherited, he should have done better with the talent and schedule he had. I just don’t know how anyone can say objectively that this season was a success under any metric, save that it was slightly better than the worse season ever.
I’m willing to give him more time. The jury is certainly still out. But he now has two seasons under his belt that were worse than expected when the seasons started. And both seasons may have had some of the lowest expectations ever. That is not the right direction.
I want nothing more than for him to make me look foolish next year and beyond.
Fact is, expectations were rightfully low for this season and the team didn’t even meet those. Regardless of what he inherited, he should have done better with the talent and schedule he had. I just don’t know how anyone can say objectively that this season was a success under any metric, save that it was slightly better than the worse season ever.
I’m willing to give him more time. The jury is certainly still out. But he now has two seasons under his belt that were worse than expected when the seasons started. And both seasons may have had some of the lowest expectations ever. That is not the right direction.
I want nothing more than for him to make me look foolish next year and beyond.
I had zero expectations his first year with that cobbled together roster but yeah, this past year I was disappointed with our performance at home and our inconsistent play throughout the entire season. Had we finished strong like SDSU did that would've been cause for sincere hope and most fans would be looking forward to next year instead of being apathetic about it.
Agree. If anything, the apathy is the worst. It was beyond depressing to realize that this program was unlikely to ever again meet the high bar of success we’d come to enjoy and thought we were entitled too. Shoot we had that recruits and some OOC wins to say that the high bar was in reach. But save that sweet 16 Run, achieving the high standards we’d longed for proved elusive.
But now it might be worse. Or at least sadder. We’ve decided a low bar of success is ok. And, you know, maybe it is for now. But we are actually failing to even meet the low bar. That is what hurts. We can’t even hit the predicted 6th place in a crappy conference. It is one thing to have delusions dashed. It is another thing all together when even the cynicism turns out to be too optimistic.
It didn’t start with Menzies. Rice both raised and lowered expectations at the same time. He is mostly to blame. But I’ve seen little evidence that the overall trajectory has changed. We will see.
But now it might be worse. Or at least sadder. We’ve decided a low bar of success is ok. And, you know, maybe it is for now. But we are actually failing to even meet the low bar. That is what hurts. We can’t even hit the predicted 6th place in a crappy conference. It is one thing to have delusions dashed. It is another thing all together when even the cynicism turns out to be too optimistic.
It didn’t start with Menzies. Rice both raised and lowered expectations at the same time. He is mostly to blame. But I’ve seen little evidence that the overall trajectory has changed. We will see.
No NMSU was not ever nationally relevant, and he did not win a NCAA tourney game. He did play some really good teams close, but that's not the point.
What one thing he did was dominate a conference. Sure it's a weak conference, but it's not like he took Kentucky, moved to the WAC and then dominated. Most WAC schools are on more or less equal footing, and he dominated his peers. He had sustained success, and the coaches behind him were able to continue that success in large part to his success.
I agree last season had more than it's fair share of disappointment. IMO, it is still just too early to know. He is trying to build in majority with HS 4 year talent, players that usually need time to develop, but ultimately end up the best college basketball players. We don't know how much he can develop these players, next year we should have more of an idea.
I didnt say he made nmsu nationally relevant. I said he built the program, left it better than it was. And if he can do that there he can do bigger things here.
Two seasons that were worse than expected? Do you not remember what he inherited? I dont know whos expectations you are talking about but if you think menzies hasnt done a good job so far youre being unreasonable.
We were picked to finish at least 6th in conference. We finished 8th. We didn’t even meet those low expectations. We managed that awesome feat despite being possibly one of the only teams in the conference to have a guy drafted to the NBA.
By what possible metric was last year a “good job?” We won a few more games than we did during the worst year in our history while playing a much weaker schedule? Great.
It is one thing to set expectations low. I get that. They need to be realistic. History goes into expectations. And mine were very low this season. I’d have been content finishing 6th place or above. If that is unreasonable, I don’t know what to say.
Saying Menzies underperformed is not the same thing as saying he needs to be fired. And yet that is the common retort to simple critique. Or someone brings up Rice. Rice is globally to blame, but he had nothing to do with what should/could have been accomplished last year, and what wasn’t.
I’m sorry. It gives me no joy to say this. And I would love for him to succeed next year, and shove my cynicism right back in my face. That’s all. Not trying to pick a fight.
By what possible metric was last year a “good job?” We won a few more games than we did during the worst year in our history while playing a much weaker schedule? Great.
It is one thing to set expectations low. I get that. They need to be realistic. History goes into expectations. And mine were very low this season. I’d have been content finishing 6th place or above. If that is unreasonable, I don’t know what to say.
Saying Menzies underperformed is not the same thing as saying he needs to be fired. And yet that is the common retort to simple critique. Or someone brings up Rice. Rice is globally to blame, but he had nothing to do with what should/could have been accomplished last year, and what wasn’t.
I’m sorry. It gives me no joy to say this. And I would love for him to succeed next year, and shove my cynicism right back in my face. That’s all. Not trying to pick a fight.
And this conversation is strong evidence of one reason why the fans have abandoned ship. If it is unreasonable to expect even a 6th place finish in a crappy conference with 2 senior guards, 2 highly decorated Juco players, and a possible first-round NBA big, what is the point of showing up? When even hopes of mediocrity are swatted away as delusional, bigger problems are afoot.
I’m with you. No matter what Universe I try to place myself in, there’s absolutely no way I can come up with “good job”. That’s not saying fire the guy. But no, a good job wasn’t done. For the second year in a row, the team was “lost” at the end of the season, gave up, tired out, lost interest, whatever. Losing 6 of the last 7? Come on now. Winning only 20 games with a very poor schedule, 13 or 14 of those wins came against teams that finished 500 or below.... those are freebies. Losing by 38 and 25... please. Swept by Utah State. Hard to call any of that good.
Yeah, we beat Reno and SDSU without their top players, then we turn around and get 4 and 5 touchdowned when those starters return. We set a record for losses at home if it weren’t for last year’s record setting Home losses.
I’m not saying fire him.
But no, so far a good job has not been done in righting the ship. We are still rudderless in choppy seas.
Maybe as the young guys grow things get better.
But last season. Blah. Not a good job. Seeing it as a good job means you enjoy root canals without anesthesia.
It’ll get twisted... from 11 wins to 20 wins..... yeah, with an OOC that gave a ton of free wins at an SOS of 300+.
It was very poor. It was more disappointing than the year prior because even with the lowest expectations, last years team should have done so much more but fell woefully short.
So many fans abandoning ship is a sad reality, but it will be the undoing more than performance, imo. Can’t have these sub 2000 crowds for games against scrubs. It’s hemorrhaging money. So you have to play people, actually play real teams. Will they? And can they beat some of them? Not easy to get fans back.
That's the toughest part. In my 30 plus years of watching UNLV basketball up close, I've never had lower expectations. And that they can't be met .... it's sad.
Is there really much of a difference between 6th place and 8th place? They both stink. The difference is just 2 games.
And we really finished tied for 7th but whatever.
And we really finished tied for 7th but whatever.
It is not the number that matters as much as the futility. At least two other teams that were probably worse than us did better than expected. We did worse. Low expectations are fine, but the price for missing the target should be higher.
What’s more, we fell to 8th by imploding at that end of the season in pretty much every way imaginable. Had we started slow and finished strong, I’d care a little less.
What’s more, we fell to 8th by imploding at that end of the season in pretty much every way imaginable. Had we started slow and finished strong, I’d care a little less.
True. But making the tournament with a program like NMSU may be easier too. In the last 12 years the’ve made it 8 times with 4 different coaches.
I suspect that it’s more difficult to make it because few teams in smaller conferences make it. In the bigger conferences a team could be pretty mediocre, get up for the big games and get a spot in because of strength of schedule.
I'm agree it is hard to call last season a good job, or a success. There was promise given the make up and the pretty good start (regardless of the competition).
But I also understand why it happened. That team had some big limitations that were not overcome. Teams figured them out while they couldn't overcome.
Could have it been better with better coaching? Maybe, maybe not. Either way it was disappointing.
I get why fans have left. UNLV fans are fickle front runners, more than most places. We sucked the year before. We gave little reason to have them show up.
I also see what Menzies is trying to do. He has come up with a collection of some solid 4 year guys, who so far are happy here and at least look like they will stick around.
That is where the patience thing comes in. Trying to build for the long haul, which ultimately is more likely to be successful and sustainable. It does make the build significantly more frustrating. So these are the dark times. Next year may be a little better, but probably not by much. Need to look for the little victories, the development of our nucleus, an unsuspecting upset, a stronger conference showing.
But I also understand why it happened. That team had some big limitations that were not overcome. Teams figured them out while they couldn't overcome.
Could have it been better with better coaching? Maybe, maybe not. Either way it was disappointing.
I get why fans have left. UNLV fans are fickle front runners, more than most places. We sucked the year before. We gave little reason to have them show up.
I also see what Menzies is trying to do. He has come up with a collection of some solid 4 year guys, who so far are happy here and at least look like they will stick around.
That is where the patience thing comes in. Trying to build for the long haul, which ultimately is more likely to be successful and sustainable. It does make the build significantly more frustrating. So these are the dark times. Next year may be a little better, but probably not by much. Need to look for the little victories, the development of our nucleus, an unsuspecting upset, a stronger conference showing.
I've talked about this in the past as well. In Rice's first 2 years, playing with LK's recruits, he went 51-19 (19-11 MW) and made the tourney twice, in years 3-5, he went 47-35 (18-21 MW) and didn't make any postseason apps.
Lon Kruger was 34-27 (17-13 MW) in his first 2 years with one NIT app, but 78-26 (33-15 MW) in years 3-5 with 2 NCAA apps including a S16 and 2nd rd loss, plus an NIT app. 49-18 (22-10 MW) in his 6th and 7th years with 2 more NCAA apps.
Menzies #'s so far. 31-34 (12-24 MW) in his first 2 years, no postseason.
Lon Kruger started on the hill and kept going up, he may have hit a valley or two, but it was mostly an upward trend. Rice started near the top of the hill, went up higher, but then started going downhill fast and couldn't seem to stop the avalanche. Menzies on the other hand started at the bottom of the hill and so far has slowly made his way up, but at least he's still going up.
Going up from worst season in the history of the school isn’t hard to do. I don’t know you, but you could have managed that. Tina herself could have.
If next year is the same? Or worse?
If it’s worse/same but fans are showing, I think he will be ok. If it’s same/better but nobody pays attention, my bet is UNLV makes a move.
Can’t keep losing money at this rate.
I was just about to say something about that. If you look at our last 3 coaches that were here for more than 3 years, year 3 seemed to be a turning point. Bayno made his first NCAA tourney in year 3 and made it again in year 5, which was also our last MW regular season title. Kruger made his first NCAA tourney (at UNLV) in year 3 and preceded to lead UNLV to the dance in 4 of the next 5 years. Rice was the opposite though, year 3 was when things started falling apart and just kept getting worse and more frustrating. I know I talk a lot about 'year 3', but looking at a lot of other coaches that have success, more often than not year 3 seems to be when it either happens or doesn't. There's obviously exceptions like Muss and Beard, and a few others, even some that took longer, but if our past repeats itself then next year could tell a lot.
I agree with you Joe that if next years results are the same/little better/little worse, but the attendance still sucks, UNLV will pull the plug on the MM experience.
Agreed. I think it’s attendance driven as much as anything because we are at an extreme with attendance. Unfortunately, because of the heavy apathy, if the Rebels actually do ok, do what’s generally considered “acceptable”, I fear crowds will still be tiny. There’s a lot of reasons behind that, I think. Jaded fans from the recent bs, jaded fans from the long term bs, fans in general becoming shorter, the Knights and other competition. UNLV lost the small hold they had over the city. Yeah, the diehards, the ones that have been showing, they’ll still show. But it’s too small of a number to maintain anything.
It sucks, but I think UNLV needs to do really well in order for the crowds are going to be ok. That means even a fluke MWCT win isn’t going to help. There’s zero hype heading into next season too... fans won’t be there early. Can’t play 5 bums and go 5-0 and expect people to show up... they won’t, last year showed that. Look at last year’s 11-2. I don’t envy MM’s position. I think it’s really tough.
I don’t have the answers. I think we need to do very well in the Diamondhead Classic. I think we need to beat a couple of name teams early.
And part of that is politics, too. The AD that hires you is more likely to ride it out because you were their hire. A new AD, at some point, is going to want to make their mark.
It’s a stacked deck right now. A lot of obstacles.
The attendance will be a problem regardless at this point. Most fans are away and it will take something substantial to bring them back.
Unless there is a big name hire waiting and in the bag, fans aren't coming back. Hell, even a relatively big name coach probably wouldn't bring that many fans in anyway. People have turned on UNLV.
So even if attendance sucks again next year, what are the options? Fire Menzies bring in another coach that won't move the needle, just to hit reset on the rebuild again? Digging that financial hole even further?
The more I think about it, I just don't think they would fire Menzies after next season without a scandal. Especially if there is an upward trend, marginal or not.
Unless there is a big name hire waiting and in the bag, fans aren't coming back. Hell, even a relatively big name coach probably wouldn't bring that many fans in anyway. People have turned on UNLV.
So even if attendance sucks again next year, what are the options? Fire Menzies bring in another coach that won't move the needle, just to hit reset on the rebuild again? Digging that financial hole even further?
The more I think about it, I just don't think they would fire Menzies after next season without a scandal. Especially if there is an upward trend, marginal or not.
