And not a single post on this board. Rice has killed UNLV basketball and the Tark board (or Mack board or whatever it's called). Is there anyway Rice survives the season?
Another embarrassing loss...
- Thread starter Rebelnomics
- Start date
i'm still more upset about the UNR game.
we were shorthanded and it was New Mexico who isn't awful.
we were shorthanded and it was New Mexico who isn't awful.
Yea he will def survive..this team is actually young and immature ..hes just been crying wolf for 3 years. im proud of how UNLV played the last 2 games just ran out of gas against sdsu and didn't box out against new mexico who played really well this game.
besides the state and university are cash poor. they buyout added in with a new coaches salary aren't what they want to do...
I think rice is improving and the team is as well...Chris Wood looks like he gets it well sometimes and morgan although out of control did a lot of nice things tonight.
UNLV NEEDS A POINT GUARD
besides the state and university are cash poor. they buyout added in with a new coaches salary aren't what they want to do...
I think rice is improving and the team is as well...Chris Wood looks like he gets it well sometimes and morgan although out of control did a lot of nice things tonight.
UNLV NEEDS A POINT GUARD
8 minutes left in the 2nd half and Morgan got his 1st rebound. he did get 1 nice offensive one a bit later and ended up with 3.
yep im done with this season and done with this message board. nobody posts on here and i sure in the hell am not paying ten dollars a month so joe spilotro can tell me how great his boy dave rice is . see ya next season
Morgan made some nice passes to wood but I'm happy with how he played I watched the game and didn't look at the stats ...usually he looks lost and for the most part he didn't look lost that's why I was happy ...it's baby steps with him cuz he hasn't played a lot
Trying to be positive about a rough year there are some good things I see winning isn't one of them so every is down ...
Unlv needs a point so mccaw and Vaughn can play the 2 and 3 doolin isn't working for them
Trying to be positive about a rough year there are some good things I see winning isn't one of them so every is down ...
Unlv needs a point so mccaw and Vaughn can play the 2 and 3 doolin isn't working for them
Morgan is Wendell Whte from a few years back, the exception being that he is a freshman and White transferred in. You will see improvement from Morgan next year, and the more he gets into the game this season, however painful it is to watch, the faster he will develop. By his senior year, he will be an outstanding contributor. Since this is a throwaway season, I say give him as much PT as possible and let Kendrick ride pine the rest of his senior season.
I am confused why he put Dantley in, who made a fantastic pass, then took him out immediately.
I am confused why he put Dantley in, who made a fantastic pass, then took him out immediately.
If UNLV had more than 8 players to use in games, then maybe the team would not run out of gas in the 2nd half? I know Rice has brought in alot of 4 and 5 star recruits. But, each year, the record gets worse. And, last night, they only had 7 players to use with Okonoboh being hurt. Of course, Rice could have given Dantly Walker some PT. Maybe not last night, but surely more than he has played so far this year. The kid was hyped. Alot of people thought/think he is not big enough and athletic enough to play for UNLV. And, that may well be the case. It it is the case, then why was he given a scholarship?
We are talking about a team that is 10-9/1-5, with on of those wins against St. Katharine's. I do not see ANY improvement from this team. Last night was essentially a replay of Morhead State, Sam Houston State and Portland, only these are now conference games, and the level of competition has improved. Same with the loss to UNR.
Also, where is the running we were promised? I thought with Rice, we were going to start seeing the Tark style of play. That RUNNIN Rebels would be accurate. May as well remove RUNNIN in front of Rebels and just be Rebels like every other sport. I'm not expecting UNLV to return to being as dominant as with Tark, but there is NO EXCUSE for the program being this bad. At this point, we are looking at a 2nd season of no NCAA or NIT.
In 7 seasons with Lon Kruger, UNLV made the NCAA Tournament 4 times and NIT 2 times. And, I could be wrong, but I believe the last time UNLV went multiple seasons in a row without playing in the NCAA or NIT was 93-94, 94-95 and 95-96. This team is on pace to do something not done at UNLV in 19 years. And, it is NOT something positive.
For all the talk of the great recruiting done by Rice, in his season, the team benefited from
Chace Stanbeck(2nd in scoring, 1st in 3pt shots made, 3rd in rebounds, 4th in minutes played)...
Anthony Marshall(3rd in scoring, 2nd in rebounds, 2nd in assists, 1st in FT attempts and FT's made, 3rd in minutes played)
Oscar Bellfield(1st in minutes played, 2nd in 3pt shots made, 1st in assists, )
Justin Hawkins (5th in minutes played, T 1st in games played, 5th in scoring)
Brice Massamba (6th in scoring, 6th in minutes played, 4th in total rebounds
Carlos Lopez was 7th in minutes played
Quintrell Thomas was 8th in minutes played
Essentially, the only player brought in by Rice that played a major role on that team was Mike Moser. The other key players were all holdovers from the Lon Kruger Era
In 2012-13, Anthony Marshall was 2nd in scoring, 2nd in 3pt shots made, 1st in assists, 5th in rebounds, 2nd in steals, 1st in minutes played
Justin Hawkins was 1st in steals, 5th in minutes played, 4th in assists
Quintrell Thomas was 6th in rebounds, 8th in minutes per game,
Kruger holdovers had less impact in 2012-13, but having watched almost every game, I do not think that team wins 25 games without Anthony Marshall. He was not a true point guard, yet he accepted the role of starting point guard to help the team. He was a leader, a coach on the floor. He played as hard as anyone can play the game. Justin Hawkins also was a key contributor to that team. Not one of the stars, but a guy who played 20+ minutes per game.
It seems the more of these 4 and 5 star recruits and transfers Rice brings in, the worse the team is at winning games. Just something to think about.
We are talking about a team that is 10-9/1-5, with on of those wins against St. Katharine's. I do not see ANY improvement from this team. Last night was essentially a replay of Morhead State, Sam Houston State and Portland, only these are now conference games, and the level of competition has improved. Same with the loss to UNR.
Also, where is the running we were promised? I thought with Rice, we were going to start seeing the Tark style of play. That RUNNIN Rebels would be accurate. May as well remove RUNNIN in front of Rebels and just be Rebels like every other sport. I'm not expecting UNLV to return to being as dominant as with Tark, but there is NO EXCUSE for the program being this bad. At this point, we are looking at a 2nd season of no NCAA or NIT.
In 7 seasons with Lon Kruger, UNLV made the NCAA Tournament 4 times and NIT 2 times. And, I could be wrong, but I believe the last time UNLV went multiple seasons in a row without playing in the NCAA or NIT was 93-94, 94-95 and 95-96. This team is on pace to do something not done at UNLV in 19 years. And, it is NOT something positive.
For all the talk of the great recruiting done by Rice, in his season, the team benefited from
Chace Stanbeck(2nd in scoring, 1st in 3pt shots made, 3rd in rebounds, 4th in minutes played)...
Anthony Marshall(3rd in scoring, 2nd in rebounds, 2nd in assists, 1st in FT attempts and FT's made, 3rd in minutes played)
Oscar Bellfield(1st in minutes played, 2nd in 3pt shots made, 1st in assists, )
Justin Hawkins (5th in minutes played, T 1st in games played, 5th in scoring)
Brice Massamba (6th in scoring, 6th in minutes played, 4th in total rebounds
Carlos Lopez was 7th in minutes played
Quintrell Thomas was 8th in minutes played
Essentially, the only player brought in by Rice that played a major role on that team was Mike Moser. The other key players were all holdovers from the Lon Kruger Era
In 2012-13, Anthony Marshall was 2nd in scoring, 2nd in 3pt shots made, 1st in assists, 5th in rebounds, 2nd in steals, 1st in minutes played
Justin Hawkins was 1st in steals, 5th in minutes played, 4th in assists
Quintrell Thomas was 6th in rebounds, 8th in minutes per game,
Kruger holdovers had less impact in 2012-13, but having watched almost every game, I do not think that team wins 25 games without Anthony Marshall. He was not a true point guard, yet he accepted the role of starting point guard to help the team. He was a leader, a coach on the floor. He played as hard as anyone can play the game. Justin Hawkins also was a key contributor to that team. Not one of the stars, but a guy who played 20+ minutes per game.
It seems the more of these 4 and 5 star recruits and transfers Rice brings in, the worse the team is at winning games. Just something to think about.
Yea, this actually has me a bit confused as well. Now, I wasn't around during the Tark years, but have read up on him and listened to some of what he has had to say the last however many years I've been a Rebel Alum. Anyway, seems to me Tark said you need 8 guys. 5 starters, 3 in the rotation, and the rest to bring up the GPA of the team.
So Rice preached "Runnin". Fitness. Hard core defense.
Now, perhaps I'm blind. But I see no Runnin. No hard core exhaustive defense being played. Actually the opposite. 10 seconds to bring the ball up the court. 4-5 seconds to make sure 4 guys are standing still outside the arc, with 1 player mingling around the key. And on the defensive side, flat footed guys playing a zone.
Anyway GoRebs, you should keep that post on the cut-n-paste for future threads lol.
I lived in Ohio during the Tark days. But, we got alot of Rebel games on TV. I have read and heard that quote by Tark before, and to a certain degree I'd say it's true.
I remember the Amoeba zone. I remember a defense that created alot of turnovers and then converted those turnovers into points. I grew up watching UNLV in the 80's and then when in my 20's in the 1990's. Once Tark was forced out, the luster was taken off UNLV Basketball, until I moved to Vegas in Spring of 2012. I still think UNLV players threw the Semi-Final game in 91 against Duke. Well, I think they were paid to not cover the point spread, and ended up losing the game, instead of just allowing Duke to keep the game close. That UNLV team was too damn good to get beat by Duke without something fishy taking place. They were 34-0. The closest game in the tournament prior to the Duke game was an 8 point win. I know the Big West was not a power conference, but UNLV won at Louisville. They won at Arkansas, and Arkansas finished 34-4 that year. Beat Michigan State by 20 points at a neutral site. Beat Rutgers by 40 points, and Rutgers won the A-10 that season.
I loved UNLV. I loved Tark with his towel. The empty chair next to him. The swagger of the players. The pre-game fireworks and other things that even most NBA teams did not do prior to this being done an T&M. I think the NCAA had it out for Tark, and the Administration at UNLV basically threw Tark "under the bus". I knew of UNLV when I was like 10-11 years old, and it was because of Tark and the Runnin Rebels. And, I lived in Youngstown, Ohio
I remember watching Navy-UNLV on television in December of 1986. T&M was packed. I also remember watching some games on TV back in Ohio when UNLV played at the Convocation Center, and then remember when T&M opened
I remember liking UNLV long before the National Title team. Especially players like
Arman Gilliam, Freddie Banks, Mark Wade, Gerald Padio, Jarvis Basnight, Anthony Jones, Spoon James, Danny Tarkanian, Sidney Green
I do not remember Reggie Theus playing at UNLV, but do remember watching him in the NBA. Even had his basketball card.
I know Tark was a special coach, and that was a special time in the history of UNLV basketball. I'm not expecting or even asking for the program to be as dominant as they were under Tark. But, what took place last year and now this year is unacceptable. Especially with all the 4 and 5 star recruits being brought in by Rice. And, as I said before, where is the Runnin? Where is the full court press, or at the very least a 3/4 court or 1/2 court trap and then fall back into a zone. This team has the players to play that kind of defense. And, they have Wood to protect the basket and block or alter shots. Sure, this style will result in some easy baskets for the opponents. It will also lead to 3 on 2 and 2 on 1 situations where UNLV can take advantage of their athleticism.
This team is not a half court type of team on offense. The players might be able to be taught how to play a half court game, but why force them into that box when the team has 8 guys that can run the floor, score going to the basket, and flourish in an up tempo style of play? Especially given that is what Rice said he was bringing back to UNLV when he got hired. The first season he had almost all players recruited by Kruger. The 2nd season he still did not have a team of his own recruits, but he had enough of his recruits to start to implement the Runnin Rebel style of play. Last year and this year, there is no excuse for walking the ball up the court, not having an effective trapping defense, not creating turnovers and turning them into points, not getting out and running after defensive rebounds when the opportunities present themselves.
I remember the Amoeba zone. I remember a defense that created alot of turnovers and then converted those turnovers into points. I grew up watching UNLV in the 80's and then when in my 20's in the 1990's. Once Tark was forced out, the luster was taken off UNLV Basketball, until I moved to Vegas in Spring of 2012. I still think UNLV players threw the Semi-Final game in 91 against Duke. Well, I think they were paid to not cover the point spread, and ended up losing the game, instead of just allowing Duke to keep the game close. That UNLV team was too damn good to get beat by Duke without something fishy taking place. They were 34-0. The closest game in the tournament prior to the Duke game was an 8 point win. I know the Big West was not a power conference, but UNLV won at Louisville. They won at Arkansas, and Arkansas finished 34-4 that year. Beat Michigan State by 20 points at a neutral site. Beat Rutgers by 40 points, and Rutgers won the A-10 that season.
I loved UNLV. I loved Tark with his towel. The empty chair next to him. The swagger of the players. The pre-game fireworks and other things that even most NBA teams did not do prior to this being done an T&M. I think the NCAA had it out for Tark, and the Administration at UNLV basically threw Tark "under the bus". I knew of UNLV when I was like 10-11 years old, and it was because of Tark and the Runnin Rebels. And, I lived in Youngstown, Ohio
I remember watching Navy-UNLV on television in December of 1986. T&M was packed. I also remember watching some games on TV back in Ohio when UNLV played at the Convocation Center, and then remember when T&M opened
I remember liking UNLV long before the National Title team. Especially players like
Arman Gilliam, Freddie Banks, Mark Wade, Gerald Padio, Jarvis Basnight, Anthony Jones, Spoon James, Danny Tarkanian, Sidney Green
I do not remember Reggie Theus playing at UNLV, but do remember watching him in the NBA. Even had his basketball card.
I know Tark was a special coach, and that was a special time in the history of UNLV basketball. I'm not expecting or even asking for the program to be as dominant as they were under Tark. But, what took place last year and now this year is unacceptable. Especially with all the 4 and 5 star recruits being brought in by Rice. And, as I said before, where is the Runnin? Where is the full court press, or at the very least a 3/4 court or 1/2 court trap and then fall back into a zone. This team has the players to play that kind of defense. And, they have Wood to protect the basket and block or alter shots. Sure, this style will result in some easy baskets for the opponents. It will also lead to 3 on 2 and 2 on 1 situations where UNLV can take advantage of their athleticism.
This team is not a half court type of team on offense. The players might be able to be taught how to play a half court game, but why force them into that box when the team has 8 guys that can run the floor, score going to the basket, and flourish in an up tempo style of play? Especially given that is what Rice said he was bringing back to UNLV when he got hired. The first season he had almost all players recruited by Kruger. The 2nd season he still did not have a team of his own recruits, but he had enough of his recruits to start to implement the Runnin Rebel style of play. Last year and this year, there is no excuse for walking the ball up the court, not having an effective trapping defense, not creating turnovers and turning them into points, not getting out and running after defensive rebounds when the opportunities present themselves.
Why beat up d Morgan ? Yes he's a top 30 kid but look at cliff Alexander #2 overall kid at Kansas
8 ppg 5 boards
It takes non guards time to develop most of the time
Wendal white was a juco all American and his first year at unlv he was awful
His second year he was almost conference player of the year
Just saying give them time
Complaining about or trashing these kids aren't helping anyone and it makes the fan base look stupid in my opinion
Morgan is only getting 7 mins a game that is not enough but maybe hell break out like wood did this year
8 ppg 5 boards
It takes non guards time to develop most of the time
Wendal white was a juco all American and his first year at unlv he was awful
His second year he was almost conference player of the year
Just saying give them time
Complaining about or trashing these kids aren't helping anyone and it makes the fan base look stupid in my opinion
Morgan is only getting 7 mins a game that is not enough but maybe hell break out like wood did this year
I was at the Georgetown and UNLV Game when Danny was playing point guard for his father. Georgetown was #1 in the country and the only reason the Rebels lost that game was because they started playing the half court offense to run time off the clock. This was before the 35 second shot clock I believe but switching styles like that cost them the game.
I can imagine what the old timers feel when they watch todays Rebels play!!
I can imagine what the old timers feel when they watch todays Rebels play!!
GoRebs! you cannot really believe that UNLV threw the final four game vs Duke can you? The logic and evidence against that is overwhelming and i cant imagine anyone who can think rationally about it coming to that conclusion.
Morgan is averaging 17 minutes a game. in that 17 minutes, he travels or carries the ball, forces numerous stupid shots, doesn't grab any rebounds while allowing the other team to get them. oh yeah, and he fouls....a lot!
he's a freshman, but he plays like a HS junior. when he comes into the game i am on pins and needles expecting something bad. more often than not, he succeeds in providing that. in those 17 minutes, his +/- has to be in the -15 range.
still though, i like him a lot. i don't know how he was ranked as high as he was, but i still like that he tries hard and seems to care. he has had some excellent moments. his offensive rebound against UNM was excellent, that shot against Arizona at crunch time, and that first initial drive against Kansas.
as far as his fouling, he is forced to cover some big guys so i understand he will have more, but he does do a lot of ridiculous ones that are flat out terrible.
Regarding the fact that we're not "running", remember that we don't have a deep rotation. With Kendall having transferred and Goodluck hurt, and Doolin not being as quick you might like for a running team, not to mention Dantley Walker being the next guy in if we run out of gas (no disrespect intended towards him, but just another "slower" guy), the coaching staff needs to do what they have to do with the cards they were dealt. If we ran and pressed, everyone here, including me, would be angry when our guys run out of gas 30 minutes into the game rather than what has seemed to be more like 35 lately. Just sayin'.
Yes, I think one or more players received money to keep the game close. NOT TO LOSE, just not cover the point spread. Duke had no business being within 10 points of UNLV, let alone winning the game. I also watched the game, and most of the Rebel error's/mistakes were of their own doing, not of Duke. I could be totally wrong. Then again, members of the team were in a hot tub with Freddie "The Fixer". Also, it's not inconceivable to believe one or more key players on that team believed they could let Duke hang around, and then pull away the final few minutes. And, to a 21,22,23 year old kid who can use money, what is the harm, as long as you win the game?
You do not have to agree with me, just know I'm far from the only person who believes this to be true. I even know a person who is a UNLV fan that believes the Rebs outright lost the game on purpose. Please notice that I do not go that far.
UNLV also beat Duke by 31 points the season before. Yes, Duke got better, but UNLV did not get worse.
Also, remember that Arkansas was #2 when they were crushed by UNLV at Arkansas.
I remember Stacey Augmon having the ball slip out of, or through his hands on several occasions. Dude had the biggest and surest hands of ANY college basketball player I've ever watched(I'm 47). There were missed wide open layups that could have been easy dunks.
Also, I know it is not legal to bet on UNLV games at Vegas Sportsbooks. The thing is, I'm from Youngstown, OH, and have also lived in Pittsburgh, PA and Cleveland, OH. Back there, alot of people have bookies. Heck, people bet on HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL games, or at least they did in Ytown back in 1991. I'm not sure how much gambling on high school football takes place now that the area has a much smaller population. I'm from what was once deemed "Murder Town USA" because of all the mob hits that took place. I had friends with family members in the mafia. The guy who lived across the street from me until I was about age 10 was one of the big guys when it came to "the bug"...aka., running numbers. One does not need Vegas Casino's or off shore internet sites to gamble And, the off shore sites did not exist back in 91, which means more business for bookies.
My guess would be that UNLV was at least a 9-10 point favorite. Plenty of room to play in a way to allow Duke to stay close, and then pull away in the final few minutes. Only, it's not always easy to just turn it on if not going 100% the entire game. Duke was not in the same caliber as UNLV in 91, but they were good enough that if a team such as UNLV were to sleep on Duke, they could easily get beat. And, I'm not buying the claims that UNLV was concerned about Duke from the start of the 90-91 season.
You do not have to agree with me, just know I'm far from the only person who believes this to be true. I even know a person who is a UNLV fan that believes the Rebs outright lost the game on purpose. Please notice that I do not go that far.
UNLV also beat Duke by 31 points the season before. Yes, Duke got better, but UNLV did not get worse.
Also, remember that Arkansas was #2 when they were crushed by UNLV at Arkansas.
I remember Stacey Augmon having the ball slip out of, or through his hands on several occasions. Dude had the biggest and surest hands of ANY college basketball player I've ever watched(I'm 47). There were missed wide open layups that could have been easy dunks.
Also, I know it is not legal to bet on UNLV games at Vegas Sportsbooks. The thing is, I'm from Youngstown, OH, and have also lived in Pittsburgh, PA and Cleveland, OH. Back there, alot of people have bookies. Heck, people bet on HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL games, or at least they did in Ytown back in 1991. I'm not sure how much gambling on high school football takes place now that the area has a much smaller population. I'm from what was once deemed "Murder Town USA" because of all the mob hits that took place. I had friends with family members in the mafia. The guy who lived across the street from me until I was about age 10 was one of the big guys when it came to "the bug"...aka., running numbers. One does not need Vegas Casino's or off shore internet sites to gamble And, the off shore sites did not exist back in 91, which means more business for bookies.
My guess would be that UNLV was at least a 9-10 point favorite. Plenty of room to play in a way to allow Duke to stay close, and then pull away in the final few minutes. Only, it's not always easy to just turn it on if not going 100% the entire game. Duke was not in the same caliber as UNLV in 91, but they were good enough that if a team such as UNLV were to sleep on Duke, they could easily get beat. And, I'm not buying the claims that UNLV was concerned about Duke from the start of the 90-91 season.
I attended the 1991 Final Four.
UNLV did not throw the game against Duke. It's a ridiculous notion.
There were a number of factors that contributed to the Rebels loss.
1) Stacey Augmon did have the best hands in college basketball in '91. And Augmon played an awful game against the Blue Devils - to the point where one could surmise he was throwing the game. Unfortunately, Augmon incurred a major migraine on the day of the game which completely crippled his abilities. If UNLV had been playing a scrub team, Stacey probably would have barely played.
And some fans forget, after Duke & UNLV played in the '90 championship, Duke signed Parade All-Americans Antonio Lang & Grant Hill. UNLV signed Ed O'Banon & Shon Tarver. Losing O'Bannon & Tarver after being screwed by the NCAA hurt UNLV's depth in '91. UNLV would've beaten Duke with those two guys off the bench.
2) UNLV was overconfident. Larry Johnson admitted that he deeply regrets that he was thinking more about the NBA than Duke.
3) The game was without question the worst officiated game in college basketball in at least 35+ years. I've already listed on the board all the one-sided, atrocious calls that went against UNLV (especially in the 2nd half). The officials ended up giving Duke an easy10-12 point swing. If Greg Anthony alone had not fouled out (four of his fouls were complete horseshtye), UNLV would have ended up winning by 8-10.
And as it was, UNLV ended up losing by only 2 points to a back-to-back NCAA champion (and the only UNLV players that actually played well was Anderson Hunt & Greg Anthony).
UNLV did not throw the game against Duke. It's a ridiculous notion.
There were a number of factors that contributed to the Rebels loss.
1) Stacey Augmon did have the best hands in college basketball in '91. And Augmon played an awful game against the Blue Devils - to the point where one could surmise he was throwing the game. Unfortunately, Augmon incurred a major migraine on the day of the game which completely crippled his abilities. If UNLV had been playing a scrub team, Stacey probably would have barely played.
And some fans forget, after Duke & UNLV played in the '90 championship, Duke signed Parade All-Americans Antonio Lang & Grant Hill. UNLV signed Ed O'Banon & Shon Tarver. Losing O'Bannon & Tarver after being screwed by the NCAA hurt UNLV's depth in '91. UNLV would've beaten Duke with those two guys off the bench.
2) UNLV was overconfident. Larry Johnson admitted that he deeply regrets that he was thinking more about the NBA than Duke.
3) The game was without question the worst officiated game in college basketball in at least 35+ years. I've already listed on the board all the one-sided, atrocious calls that went against UNLV (especially in the 2nd half). The officials ended up giving Duke an easy10-12 point swing. If Greg Anthony alone had not fouled out (four of his fouls were complete horseshtye), UNLV would have ended up winning by 8-10.
And as it was, UNLV ended up losing by only 2 points to a back-to-back NCAA champion (and the only UNLV players that actually played well was Anderson Hunt & Greg Anthony).
All that being said ...unlv wins if they had any sort of back up point guard even tark says they didn't ...unlv better team but duke won ....
With all that said unlv had a shot to tie or win it at the end Larry Johnson should have taken that shot ..bad game or not
Duke played A-
Unlv played C+
I watch that game once a year every year ...
With all that said unlv had a shot to tie or win it at the end Larry Johnson should have taken that shot ..bad game or not
Duke played A-
Unlv played C+
I watch that game once a year every year ...
GoRebs! we need to do lunch. i'd love to hear some of the stories i'm sure you have. i don't think it's too far fetched, but a few of those guys were already going to get paid big by the NBA.
Augmon was the one guy who absolutely sucked that game and Grant Hill went to town. (i hadn't heard about the migraine, and if that was the case, that would've been the 1st (and only?) migraine of his career (pro included))
the Rebels played 5 vs 8.
i think Coach Tark made a call that ended up costing us the game. even if he went the other way it could have back fired too. we had H Waldman on the bench. a PG, yes a freshman (and a hotdog), but nevertheless, he was the backup PG. Hunt was the best Rebel on the court. Tark made him run the point. which took Hunt out of what he was doing to lay waste on Duke. i personally wish he would've at least seen how H did for a minute or 2.
Augmon was the one guy who absolutely sucked that game and Grant Hill went to town. (i hadn't heard about the migraine, and if that was the case, that would've been the 1st (and only?) migraine of his career (pro included))
the Rebels played 5 vs 8.
i think Coach Tark made a call that ended up costing us the game. even if he went the other way it could have back fired too. we had H Waldman on the bench. a PG, yes a freshman (and a hotdog), but nevertheless, he was the backup PG. Hunt was the best Rebel on the court. Tark made him run the point. which took Hunt out of what he was doing to lay waste on Duke. i personally wish he would've at least seen how H did for a minute or 2.
Stacey never really publicly mentioned it, but he did have periodic migraine issues throughout his career. I enclosed an article talking about Stacey struggling in a high school title game due to a migraine.
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/HELMS/Basketball/HelmsBasketballAnnual1986.pdf
Even at UNLV, once in while, he'd play an inexplicably terrible game. It just happened during the '91 Final Four. You watch the '91 Arkansas and '91 Duke games, and UNLV's bench played poorly in both. Augmon was awesome against the Razorbacks, but was nonexistent against Duke.
And I didn't think Grant Hill especially went off in the '91 game. I don't give Hill much credit for stopping Stacey: Augmon could barely even catch a pass during the game. At times it was almost like UNLV was going 4 on 5 on O.
The one Duke player that did go off was Laettner. Ackles was incapable of covering Laettner, and he scored 18 points in the first 12 mins of the game. When Tark finally put Johnson on Laettner, it stopped Duke's momentum. Virtually all of Laettner's points in the 2nd half came off free throws - which most were derived from bad calls on UNLV.
And Tark was never going to play H Waldman in the Final Four. Waldman was put in Tark's dog house during the Louisville game. I don't think Tark ever considered playing Waldman, (But not having a backup PG ready to play certainly hurt the Rebels. Tark later admitted UNLV still would've won if the Rebs still had Boobie James or if they had signed Matt Othick as a backup G in the game).
But Tark even admitted he probably should've went to his bench more during the game to spell his starters. In the '90 national title game, Cjivanovich and Bice got some playing time in the 1st half. Tark should've probably played Bice in the '91 game to give Anthony & Hunt some breathers. Perhaps it would've saved Anthony a few foul games. But Tark knew from the beginning is was going to be a dog fight, and he decided to roll the dice and play Anthony the entire game. It was just shame that the refs fouled Greg out (the only time it ever happened in Anthony's career btw).
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/HELMS/Basketball/HelmsBasketballAnnual1986.pdf
Even at UNLV, once in while, he'd play an inexplicably terrible game. It just happened during the '91 Final Four. You watch the '91 Arkansas and '91 Duke games, and UNLV's bench played poorly in both. Augmon was awesome against the Razorbacks, but was nonexistent against Duke.
And I didn't think Grant Hill especially went off in the '91 game. I don't give Hill much credit for stopping Stacey: Augmon could barely even catch a pass during the game. At times it was almost like UNLV was going 4 on 5 on O.
The one Duke player that did go off was Laettner. Ackles was incapable of covering Laettner, and he scored 18 points in the first 12 mins of the game. When Tark finally put Johnson on Laettner, it stopped Duke's momentum. Virtually all of Laettner's points in the 2nd half came off free throws - which most were derived from bad calls on UNLV.
And Tark was never going to play H Waldman in the Final Four. Waldman was put in Tark's dog house during the Louisville game. I don't think Tark ever considered playing Waldman, (But not having a backup PG ready to play certainly hurt the Rebels. Tark later admitted UNLV still would've won if the Rebs still had Boobie James or if they had signed Matt Othick as a backup G in the game).
But Tark even admitted he probably should've went to his bench more during the game to spell his starters. In the '90 national title game, Cjivanovich and Bice got some playing time in the 1st half. Tark should've probably played Bice in the '91 game to give Anthony & Hunt some breathers. Perhaps it would've saved Anthony a few foul games. But Tark knew from the beginning is was going to be a dog fight, and he decided to roll the dice and play Anthony the entire game. It was just shame that the refs fouled Greg out (the only time it ever happened in Anthony's career btw).
To clear up a few things:
It's Richard Perry, not Freddie Perry.
As far as the back-up point guard situation in 90-91, me and Jerry have not had too many disagreements over our fifty plus year friendship but have always thought he made a mistake going with H Waldman and redshirting Dedan Thomas. H hurt his wrist around the half way point of the season and along with that as the season moved forward his confidence went down. Jerry wasn't going to put him in that game under the circumstances.
Dedan, at least at that time, was more of a Jerry Tarkanian point guard than H was. Some of us have needled him about over the years, for a long time he disagreed but in time he has come around.
As to the game itself, it was the classic sports psychologist's dream. You had a Duke team that was humiliated one year prior coming back for revenge led by a great motivator in Krzyzewski and three future lottery picks in Laettner, Hurley and Hill. Meanwhile you had an undefeated UNLV team coming in playing a team they had just squashed a year ago.
Jerry wanted to play anyone but Duke, especially in semi-final for which Duke had almost a week to prepare. For those of us who were at North Central High School for the teams official practice over the weekend, not the stuff that goes on that Friday in front of the public, you could see the mental focus wasn't were it needed to be (and honestly it began slipping following the big Arkansas win).
Jerry was usually always a basket case prior to games but he was even more so than usual. A couple of us went to talk to him during he practice and he was not happy at all with the guys mental focus. Going into the game I still thought UNLV would win but it would be close,certainly no 30 point blowout.
And lets give Duke some credit, especially their assistant Pete Gaudet who did their scouting report for the game. Gaudet recognized on film that when teams doubled Larry from the front and behind Rebel players were reluctant to dump the ball into him. Their strategy was to limit Larry's touches, especially in the post by doubling him from the front and behind, and play solid man on Greg and Anderson.
If they were going to lose it was going to be because Stacey and Ackles were going to have to beat them. Obviously neither of them played as well as they needed to that evening, unfortunately it happens.
Lastly, the biggest reason the point shaving argument in the game is baseless is the FBI looked into the matter questioning a few people and the investigation was pretty quickly cancelled as there was no evidence which warranted a deeper inquiry. They publicly announced this in the spring of 1992.
Given their distain for Perry obviously they would have loved to have found something but they couldn't. Sadly much of this speculation at the time was driven by UNLV's administration and the story took on legs of its own.
It's Richard Perry, not Freddie Perry.
As far as the back-up point guard situation in 90-91, me and Jerry have not had too many disagreements over our fifty plus year friendship but have always thought he made a mistake going with H Waldman and redshirting Dedan Thomas. H hurt his wrist around the half way point of the season and along with that as the season moved forward his confidence went down. Jerry wasn't going to put him in that game under the circumstances.
Dedan, at least at that time, was more of a Jerry Tarkanian point guard than H was. Some of us have needled him about over the years, for a long time he disagreed but in time he has come around.
As to the game itself, it was the classic sports psychologist's dream. You had a Duke team that was humiliated one year prior coming back for revenge led by a great motivator in Krzyzewski and three future lottery picks in Laettner, Hurley and Hill. Meanwhile you had an undefeated UNLV team coming in playing a team they had just squashed a year ago.
Jerry wanted to play anyone but Duke, especially in semi-final for which Duke had almost a week to prepare. For those of us who were at North Central High School for the teams official practice over the weekend, not the stuff that goes on that Friday in front of the public, you could see the mental focus wasn't were it needed to be (and honestly it began slipping following the big Arkansas win).
Jerry was usually always a basket case prior to games but he was even more so than usual. A couple of us went to talk to him during he practice and he was not happy at all with the guys mental focus. Going into the game I still thought UNLV would win but it would be close,certainly no 30 point blowout.
And lets give Duke some credit, especially their assistant Pete Gaudet who did their scouting report for the game. Gaudet recognized on film that when teams doubled Larry from the front and behind Rebel players were reluctant to dump the ball into him. Their strategy was to limit Larry's touches, especially in the post by doubling him from the front and behind, and play solid man on Greg and Anderson.
If they were going to lose it was going to be because Stacey and Ackles were going to have to beat them. Obviously neither of them played as well as they needed to that evening, unfortunately it happens.
Lastly, the biggest reason the point shaving argument in the game is baseless is the FBI looked into the matter questioning a few people and the investigation was pretty quickly cancelled as there was no evidence which warranted a deeper inquiry. They publicly announced this in the spring of 1992.
Given their distain for Perry obviously they would have loved to have found something but they couldn't. Sadly much of this speculation at the time was driven by UNLV's administration and the story took on legs of its own.
I was 19 that year And everything is a blurr. I wished I had your memory Baer.
This UNLV team needs a Moses Scurry.
I'll be at the game today as usual screaming at the refs to call three seconds and yelling for the rebels to box out. Go Rebels !
This UNLV team needs a Moses Scurry.
I'll be at the game today as usual screaming at the refs to call three seconds and yelling for the rebels to box out. Go Rebels !
Good thread. Nice having some decent stuff to read on the board this season lol.
This post was edited on 1/24 11:36 AM by YellowSpinE
This post was edited on 1/24 11:36 AM by YellowSpinE
Please understand, while I was not living in Las Vegas at the time, and my favorite college team is, and was Youngstown State, I really like UNLV. And, I began to like them way before 89-90 and 90-91. I was in about 7th grade when we got cable. And, UNLV was a good enough program to have alot of their games televised. Well, alot for that era. And, part of that was due to playing some high quality OOC games.
I have NEVER believed UNLV players tried to lose the game. I just think 2 or 3 MAY have played poorly on purpose, thinking they could then turn it on in the final 3-4 minutes of the game and win. I do not think ANY of the players wanted to lose the game. And, this is where overconfidence could come in. Yes, Duke was a better team in 91 than 1990. But, 30 points better in comparison to UNLV? Also, while Duke did improve, UNLV did not get worse. May not have gotten better, but they were good enough to go 34-0, beat some very good teams non-conference, including on the road. And, in the tournament, the closest game was 8 points.
Here is something else to consider, and actually something I just thought about in the last 1-2 days. It's not out of the reason to think that one or more players on the team may have gotten themselves into some type of trouble, or been involved in things that would be NCAA violations. Not because they were thugs, simply because they were college aged kids, and we all did our fair share of stupid things at that age. I'm 47 and still do stupid things. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that these guys could have been threatened, depending on what they did. Heck, they may have even tried to lose. Maybe a few players owed someone money, and that someone threatened to harm a family member, or go public with info known about the players. Yes, I'm into the realm of conspiracy theories. Well, I've been living in Las Vegas for close to 3 years, and one of the things I've learned is this town is full of people that think just about everything is a conspiracy. And, while I'm one who is open to conspiracy theories, alot of the theories are, well, they are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out there. Having said that, the conspiracy theorists are one of the things I LOVE about Vegas.
This is one of those things that only the people involved will ever know. And, yes, the game was terribly officiated, and that can be a conspiracy theory in and of itself. The people with the best opportunity to fix the outcome of a game are the officials. This is especially true in regular season games, that have a point spread of 20,30 points. Not hard to start calling phantom fouls and other calls on the team giving the points. In the end, the margin of victory is say 17-18 points when a team is favored by 20. The only people who are even going to consider there may have been anything illegal occurring are people who bet on the game.
There was a guy back in Youngstown who used to sit near me at basketball games. This dude bet on everything. He told me it was common for him to see the game officials eating before the game or after the games at a popular restaurant adjacent to campus. College officials do not make alot of money for officiating. He used to often think about what it would take money wise for him to ask an official to fix the outcome of a game. Not who wins or loses, but whether or not the spread is covered. And, not in an even match-up, but in the games where the point spread is 20+ points, like I mentioned above.
Let me also add that I HATE DUKE!!!!!!.... My brother-in-law is a huge Duke fan. That is not why I HATE DUKE, but it did make things interesting whenever watching games together in which I HATE DUKE was playing. Oh, did I mention that I HATE DUKE???
I cannot begin to imagine what it was like in Vegas during the Tark days. I know what it was like in Youngstown in the 1990's when Jim Tressel was football coach, and YSU won 4NC's and played in 6 NC games from 91-99. I also lived in Pittsburgh for 3.5 years. I was there in 92 when the Penguins won the Stanley Cup. It was AWESOME, and I do not even like hockey. Same with the 92 baseball season and playoffs. I was at game 5 of the NLCS. I had tickets for game 2 of the 92 World Series. And, 1992 is when Bill Cowher got the Steelers winning again. I went to a Monday Night game against Buffalo. Sat in the section near the Bill's fans. Steeler's were killing them, and people started saying "hey, does anyone know what Bills stands for?..... Boy I Love Losing Super Bowls.... I was also living in Cleveland in 2007 when the Cavs made the NBA Finals.... I HATE CLEVELAND PRO SPORTS TEAMS, and yet, it was still awesome.
I'm soooooooooooooooooooooooo ready for a UNLV basketball team that can win the MWC, and then make a deep run into the tournament. At least my first 2 seasons living here, UNLV got to the Tournament and advanced to the 2nd round. I try my best to follow UNLV football, but it is bad. 2013 was fun to see how excitement grew as the season progressed, and to see kids actually getting to experience winning. Hopefully that is what we have coming with Coach Sanchez. Maybe not in 2015, but hopefully in 3-4 years, or maybe even 2016.
No matter what the reason was for the loss to I HATE DUKE in 91, it is still hard for me to believe Duke beat UNLV. I'm sure it would be even worse if I were an alum of UNLV, whether or not I was living here in Vegas at the time.
Go Rebels!!!!!!
I have NEVER believed UNLV players tried to lose the game. I just think 2 or 3 MAY have played poorly on purpose, thinking they could then turn it on in the final 3-4 minutes of the game and win. I do not think ANY of the players wanted to lose the game. And, this is where overconfidence could come in. Yes, Duke was a better team in 91 than 1990. But, 30 points better in comparison to UNLV? Also, while Duke did improve, UNLV did not get worse. May not have gotten better, but they were good enough to go 34-0, beat some very good teams non-conference, including on the road. And, in the tournament, the closest game was 8 points.
Here is something else to consider, and actually something I just thought about in the last 1-2 days. It's not out of the reason to think that one or more players on the team may have gotten themselves into some type of trouble, or been involved in things that would be NCAA violations. Not because they were thugs, simply because they were college aged kids, and we all did our fair share of stupid things at that age. I'm 47 and still do stupid things. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that these guys could have been threatened, depending on what they did. Heck, they may have even tried to lose. Maybe a few players owed someone money, and that someone threatened to harm a family member, or go public with info known about the players. Yes, I'm into the realm of conspiracy theories. Well, I've been living in Las Vegas for close to 3 years, and one of the things I've learned is this town is full of people that think just about everything is a conspiracy. And, while I'm one who is open to conspiracy theories, alot of the theories are, well, they are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out there. Having said that, the conspiracy theorists are one of the things I LOVE about Vegas.
This is one of those things that only the people involved will ever know. And, yes, the game was terribly officiated, and that can be a conspiracy theory in and of itself. The people with the best opportunity to fix the outcome of a game are the officials. This is especially true in regular season games, that have a point spread of 20,30 points. Not hard to start calling phantom fouls and other calls on the team giving the points. In the end, the margin of victory is say 17-18 points when a team is favored by 20. The only people who are even going to consider there may have been anything illegal occurring are people who bet on the game.
There was a guy back in Youngstown who used to sit near me at basketball games. This dude bet on everything. He told me it was common for him to see the game officials eating before the game or after the games at a popular restaurant adjacent to campus. College officials do not make alot of money for officiating. He used to often think about what it would take money wise for him to ask an official to fix the outcome of a game. Not who wins or loses, but whether or not the spread is covered. And, not in an even match-up, but in the games where the point spread is 20+ points, like I mentioned above.
Let me also add that I HATE DUKE!!!!!!.... My brother-in-law is a huge Duke fan. That is not why I HATE DUKE, but it did make things interesting whenever watching games together in which I HATE DUKE was playing. Oh, did I mention that I HATE DUKE???
I cannot begin to imagine what it was like in Vegas during the Tark days. I know what it was like in Youngstown in the 1990's when Jim Tressel was football coach, and YSU won 4NC's and played in 6 NC games from 91-99. I also lived in Pittsburgh for 3.5 years. I was there in 92 when the Penguins won the Stanley Cup. It was AWESOME, and I do not even like hockey. Same with the 92 baseball season and playoffs. I was at game 5 of the NLCS. I had tickets for game 2 of the 92 World Series. And, 1992 is when Bill Cowher got the Steelers winning again. I went to a Monday Night game against Buffalo. Sat in the section near the Bill's fans. Steeler's were killing them, and people started saying "hey, does anyone know what Bills stands for?..... Boy I Love Losing Super Bowls.... I was also living in Cleveland in 2007 when the Cavs made the NBA Finals.... I HATE CLEVELAND PRO SPORTS TEAMS, and yet, it was still awesome.
I'm soooooooooooooooooooooooo ready for a UNLV basketball team that can win the MWC, and then make a deep run into the tournament. At least my first 2 seasons living here, UNLV got to the Tournament and advanced to the 2nd round. I try my best to follow UNLV football, but it is bad. 2013 was fun to see how excitement grew as the season progressed, and to see kids actually getting to experience winning. Hopefully that is what we have coming with Coach Sanchez. Maybe not in 2015, but hopefully in 3-4 years, or maybe even 2016.
No matter what the reason was for the loss to I HATE DUKE in 91, it is still hard for me to believe Duke beat UNLV. I'm sure it would be even worse if I were an alum of UNLV, whether or not I was living here in Vegas at the time.
Go Rebels!!!!!!
