Gut feeling
- Thread starter jay_dela
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Please, no. He is not a strong coach. He had exceptional talent at UCLA and those teams underachieved.
Same guys saying Lavin underachieved want Cronin, WHY? I''l take 4 sweet 16s & an elite 8 and a 10-1 record in the opening wknd of the NCAAs versus one sweet 16 and a bunch of one and dones, plus a 26-44 record vs top 25 teams.
Can Cronin get UNLV to the NCAAs, sure but he's probably not gonna do anything when he gets there.
How is 10-1 an underachievement? It's one of the best records in NCAA tournament history Guy gets a bad wrap and everybody parrots the same thing.
Can Cronin get UNLV to the NCAAs, sure but he's probably not gonna do anything when he gets there.
How is 10-1 an underachievement? It's one of the best records in NCAA tournament history Guy gets a bad wrap and everybody parrots the same thing.
You keep mentioning the 10-1 opening weekend record, while failing to mention that it was his record for THE FIRST 6 years of his career (and was accomplished with Final 4-calibur talent).
In his last 5 full years of coaching, he has a record of 0-2 in the NCAA's, and has missed the tourney altogether 3 times.
Want to compare the NCAA success of the two? How about this.
Cronin had only 2 NCAA appearances in his first 7 seasons of coaching (3 at the mighty Murray State, then 4 with a Cincy program in shambles). In his past 6 seasons, he's made the NCAA every year and won 4 NCAA games.
Lavin made the NCAA all 6 times in his first 6 seasons of coaching (all at UCLA with top-ranked recruiting classes full of NBA players), and won an impressive 11 NCAA games. Since then, in his past 5 full seasons of coaching, he's only made the dance twice, going 0-2 in those games.
Cronin had only 2 NCAA appearances in his first 7 seasons of coaching (3 at the mighty Murray State, then 4 with a Cincy program in shambles). In his past 6 seasons, he's made the NCAA every year and won 4 NCAA games.
Lavin made the NCAA all 6 times in his first 6 seasons of coaching (all at UCLA with top-ranked recruiting classes full of NBA players), and won an impressive 11 NCAA games. Since then, in his past 5 full seasons of coaching, he's only made the dance twice, going 0-2 in those games.
And you keep failing to mention that he got cancer after his first year at St John's, and you're seriously counting the following season in which he coached 4 games before having to go on chemo? Who do you think recruited that Final 4 caliber talent? He did.
This is why Rebels basketball is a joke, fans who are getting all wet over Mick Cronin. We'll be in the same boat five years down the road. 2.5 million for him is ridiculous. He's reached his ceiling, better to get a younger up and comer than a guy we already know will likely just give us one and dones.
Mick Cronin for two and half million? No thanks, please stay in Cincinnati.
This is why Rebels basketball is a joke, fans who are getting all wet over Mick Cronin. We'll be in the same boat five years down the road. 2.5 million for him is ridiculous. He's reached his ceiling, better to get a younger up and comer than a guy we already know will likely just give us one and dones.
Mick Cronin for two and half million? No thanks, please stay in Cincinnati.
I'm NOT counting the cancer season (hence I said his past 5 FULL seasons of coaching). If I counted the cancer season it would be 2 NCAA trips in 6 years after his initial run at UCLA.
And yes, he did recruit that super talent, just like Rice did here. And he did drastically underachieve with it, just like Rice did here. NO THANKS to more underachieving!!!!! We've had more than enough of it at UNLV the past 2 decades.
I DID give Lavin props numerous times for his postseason success... but if you think an underachieving regular-season team in the MWC would even sniff the NCAA's like his underachieving UCLA teams regularly did, think again.. we need a coach who will win OOC and MWC games just so we can get into the tourney in the first place.
Lavin coached 4 full seasons at St John's not 5 and 4 of the 5 were 20 win seasons. He took a 6-12 squad to 12-6 his first season in the Big East, hardly an underachievement, put them in the NCAAs for the first time in 12 years, got them ranked for the first time in 12 years and increased attendance by 40%. He turned that program around big time.
If you think 4 sweet sixteens and an elite 8 is seriously underachieving then I don't know what to tell you, you're living in lala land. He's a far better candidate than Cronin. If you're worried about underachieving how can you support hiring Cronin? Six straight tournaments and he won three games, WOW that's setting the world on fire lol.
If you think 4 sweet sixteens and an elite 8 is seriously underachieving then I don't know what to tell you, you're living in lala land. He's a far better candidate than Cronin. If you're worried about underachieving how can you support hiring Cronin? Six straight tournaments and he won three games, WOW that's setting the world on fire lol.
When i'm posting his splits i'm counting his 4 full seasons at St. John's plus his disastrous final season at UCLA. 4+1=5. Overall, his St. John's program made the dance twice and were quickly eliminated in the first game. Think that remarkable turnaround would fly at UNLV?
There is a reason Lavin is not very much in demand nationally. Think about that.
Like i've said many times, when I talk about his teams underachieving i'm generally talking about the regular season; OOC and PAC-10 play. This would matter at UNLV, where it would be much harder to secure an at-large, especially with the current state of this crummy conference.
If you don't believe he has underachieved with regards to his talent, that is your right, but he is pretty much universally known for that throughout the country.
Universally known? Lol, ok. I'll form my own opinions independent of what the media is browbeating, thanks.
If first round exits are not gonna cut it, why do you want to overpay Cronin for exactly that? At this stage, I'd rather give Augmon a shot than pay top 10 money for a top 50 coach. Still plenty of up and comers out there.
If we hire Cronin we'll be in this same spot five years from now and you'll be looking for the next Cronin, like an insecure housewife who keeps going back to her wifebeater husband lol
If first round exits are not gonna cut it, why do you want to overpay Cronin for exactly that? At this stage, I'd rather give Augmon a shot than pay top 10 money for a top 50 coach. Still plenty of up and comers out there.
If we hire Cronin we'll be in this same spot five years from now and you'll be looking for the next Cronin, like an insecure housewife who keeps going back to her wifebeater husband lol
I don't know how much better an experienced Cronin or Lavin would be than coach Augmon. What's that experience worth early on? 3,4,5 wins a year?
3M for one of those two coaches sounds crazy to me. Bet we could have coach Augmon for 500k. If the "experienced" coach is worth 5 more wins per year in the first two years, that sounds like roughly half a million dollars per extra win to me.
It's not my money, but I'd be fine with Augmon. Scratch that, I'd be excited for coach Augmon. If it's 3M per year for a coach I've never heard of until three days ago versus 500k for Stacey, Id prefer Stacey.
(Now go on, somebody tell me I'm an idiot and I don't know what I'm talking about and there's no chance and I only want this because I'm a Homer and blah blah blah)
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It continues to boggle my mind that anyone would want someone who has shown as little as Augmon did when he was a mouse-quiet assistant for some of the most underachieving teams in UNLV history.
I'd prefer the coach who can elevate this team the most, regardless of how much he's being paid. I'd also prefer the coach who can finally remove us from the ranks of the underachieving. Based on what Augmon has shown, i'd even prefer Lavin over him.
I'd prefer the coach who can elevate this team the most, regardless of how much he's being paid. I'd also prefer the coach who can finally remove us from the ranks of the underachieving. Based on what Augmon has shown, i'd even prefer Lavin over him.
FWIW- A respected coach like Cronin, with the team we had to start the year would have had us ranked top 15. Cronin has OVERACHIEVED at Cincinnati. Fact.
It boggles my mind that people can't see how someone can have a differing opinion than theirs on a college basketball coach. Ugh.
If you don't care about the school overpaying for a basketball coach that's fine. Pretty sure the grown ups do. And the point of my post wasn't to restart the debate over Augmon's coaching ability (on which we completely disagree), rather to try to quantify what exactly we're buying for that extra 2.5M per year. Again, if that convo doesn't interest you, move along.
If you don't care about the school overpaying for a basketball coach that's fine. Pretty sure the grown ups do. And the point of my post wasn't to restart the debate over Augmon's coaching ability (on which we completely disagree), rather to try to quantify what exactly we're buying for that extra 2.5M per year. Again, if that convo doesn't interest you, move along.
I like Cronin, don't get me wrong.
If we pay him 3M per top 15 rankings had better be the norm. Is that a realistic expectation?
I agree- Anything other than top 25 rankings, MWC championships and successful Tourney appearances would be a let down. Mick will have A TON of pressure to succeed. I am willing to bet that he can do it rather than try to build the program up with a guy like Augmon. Opinions differ and that is fine, but I am on the other side of the line in the sand. Enough of the mediocrity.
your boggling clearly comes from when you became a fan, but i can understand it. although not the "quiet as mouse" part.
when you think of UNLV, you think 1-Kruger, 2-Wink Adams, 3-Anthony Marshall, and 4-Joe Darger. not sure if that's your order. for people who have been around longer, it goes 1-Tark, 2-Augmon, 3-LJ, 4-Anthony....something like that. even still, i guarantee you don't have a fondness for Adams or Marshall like many do for Augmon. it was a different time and college basketball revolved around UNLV and the entire city embraced those teams. unless you were there, you will never understand it.
if you could've felt what he meant to the city and the school, you'd understand why some of us feel that the guy who played 4 years under Tark, had a triple double(forget against who), won 3 defensive awards, got to 1 elite 8, 2 final fours, 1 championship, assisted for 5 years, and has his jersey hanging from the rafters, should get a shot.
I like Augmon too and he deserves a chance somewhere but not here yet.
That is a valid point and one I don't refute. I am really jealous of you guys who were here to witness the glory days and the Tark years.
Augmon has earned legendary status as one of the best players on some of the best teams UNLV has ever had. But it begs the question, are people unreasonably biased towards giving him a shot?
Take out the fact that he's a UNLV legend and a very successful, long-term NBA player. Then look at his resume. A low-level NBA developmental coach for some middling Denver teams. An assistant on some brutally underachieving UNLV teams. That's about it.
Take out the name Augmon, just say another coach with his exact resume was being linked to the UNLV job, but this coach is not a UNLV legend and former NBA player. Everyone lobbying for Augmon would be offended that the UNLV name is even being linked with such a coach.
The fact I wasn't here for that glorious era, as well as I haven't lived in Las Vegas in over a decade, means the nostalgia you feel isn't there for me, and I feel i'm also a lot less biased and can see more clearly how woefully unqualified he is. That's not even bringing up the disgraceful way he went about lobbying himself for the job and whining about not being named interim HC while the season was still going on.
For me, Augmon got stuck behind two of the least basketball (court) experienced coaches in the nation.
Rice rarely played in his two season at UNLV, he spent time on the bench working the x&os but had a hard time relaying the flow of the game. He also took too long to reign in guys on the court as far as shot selection, effort and couldn't relate court awareness.
Simon had a season and a half of college basketball coaching experience and one season as a head coach of a high school basketball team
Augmon is a four year college starter and defensive star, 15 year NBA player, 4 year NBA basketball assistant and 5 year assistant for a UNLV program that had 2 NCAA appearances. With Augmon, the program has had only one season in which it allowed greater than 65 points per game as well as never had a losing record. I feel Augmon would have produced a much more impressive product if he were making the calls in the hurdles and at crucial junctures of the game.
He is also the only coach that could looked the player in the eye with the players knowing he is a superior talent to themselves. He earned his ring on the court and I really hoped the Plastic Man would be the first choice for UNLV basketball even with a 3 year contract.
Maybe a three year contract could work for Augmon, that's long enough for him to show what he can do and not too long to destroy the program. I don't know, I wouldn't be totally against that.
What we've seen recently hasn't been mediocrity, it's been bad. Bad enough to fire a coach misseason bad. We've all had enough of it.
I like that you're on board with the tall expectations for Cronin. Obviously you know him better than I, because as I said, IDKWTF he was as of last week.
At the price he commands expectations will be through the roof. If you believe the tweets, sounds like Mick would have to turn this around with a whole new roster. Debate that as a positive or negative, but regardless, it implies an undermanned roster next year.
Mike Grimala seems to think we'd all need to be patient, as Cronin would take a few years to rebuild the program. A few years absolutely won't fly. This dumpy conference is winnable and our coach has the best resources in it. No time for ramp-up years. Perhaps Cronin knows that, and is holding out for more years to lessen the immediate pressure to win.
Side point: I keep hearing 6 years. Hope that's wrong. I don't want a six year top dollar deal for anyone who I'm not 100% sure can succeed here, and succeed immediately. Cronin might be a nice hire but he doesn't deserve that kind of security.
Any coach out there is gonna take a few years to rebuild this mess unless their name is Pitino, he'd turn it around immediately.
I disagree. You can get talent here immediately and the conference stinks. Hell, you don't even need that great of talent to compete in this league right now.
Top dollar coaches shouldn't come with a can't compete in the MW in years 1-3 caveat. A top 20 coach in the country shouldn't need that. Not here.
Not unless the timing is right with the new coach inheriting a full cupboard.
That isn't gonna happen in this case, Morgan is unlikely to be the only one leaving. Not to mention the incoming class... it's not looking good.
That isn't gonna happen in this case, Morgan is unlikely to be the only one leaving. Not to mention the incoming class... it's not looking good.
I can't accept that a top 20 coach would take 3 years to build a roster that would compete in the Mountain West.
A top 20 coach shouldn't lose the entire roster he's inheriting, and even if he does, he should be able to almost immediately rebuild it with better talent than half of this league pursues regularly.
A top 20 coach shouldn't lose the entire roster he's inheriting, and even if he does, he should be able to almost immediately rebuild it with better talent than half of this league pursues regularly.
Sorry but when youre being paid top 10% of coaches, 3 years of rebuiling isnt going to cut it... its not like we went 8-24 the last 2 yrs. I understand if next year is a 18-20 win season but he better be worth 6-8 wins more without trying for that price tag. And I dont think its unrealistic to believe so...
Top 20 coach? We're not getting one of those. Top 40/50 is what we're realistically looking at, maybe higher.
If the best we can do is a top 40-50 coach and a three year rebuild, give me Stacey. I'll take my chances.
Cronin was ranked #42 last season by some ranking service Slick Mick referenced, which seems about right IMO, he may be as low as mid 30s
Not sure if you were directing that to me, but if so I was referring to his salary ranking. Or what it would be anyway if we paid him 3M. That's gotta be top 20 money.
Yeah, sorry forgot to use the quote marks. Ok, I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately salary does not always match up with results and vice versa. Cronin could be very good here but it's not gonna happen right away. It took him time at Murray State, it took him time at Cincy. It will take him time at UNLV.
His teams improved a lot at both spots through one full cycle of his own recruits so by year four or five he will have UNLV on point. Until then, I wouldn't count on any conference titles or beyond.
Ok... But time is relative. And for the record he went 26-8 in his first year at Murray State so if that's what it takes then A-OK by me.
The Cincy "rebuild" was in no way shape or form comparable to what he'd be dealing with here.
