Weekly Topic Better defender!?
- Thread starter Rebel_Luv
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Not even close! Solid defender for his size ,but Greedy was on track to break the all time steal record before he got kicked off of TCU! I remember when at UNLV teams had to have their forward bring the ball up at times because the guards would have such a hard time getting pass mid-court!
Greedy single-handedly shut down USCs backcourt. He also did a great job keeping Jeryl Sasser in check for the 1st half of a game we eventually lost at home to SMU. I remember Bayno for whatever reason took Greedy off Sasser and of course Sasser went off on us. That was the 'This is MY house' game I believe. Only better one-on-one defender I've ever seen for UNLV was Stacey Augmon.
Out of the two, Greedy easily. Gilbert is still a foul machine at this point. Greedy played more under control.
I thought Greg was better than Greedy defensively. Hell, tbh, I thought even though everyone thought he was just offensively armed, Hunt was a tremendous defender. Marcus Banks was terrific too.
Greedy was so lightning quick, but he got burned a lot and got reach around pokes for turnovers (or a foul called). Still, really quick feet, stayed in front most times, gambled a bit too much (so did Banks).
Sasser abused Marion.
With Greedy, I can’t forget that game at ASU when Eddie House went for 97 points and I believe Greedy got a triple double - if you count turnovers … and alot of those were carries.
Since Keshon has not even played a game in his second season, I probably overreacted when I wrote about his being the best since Robert.
Greedy was indeed very, very good. Maybe better.
I do have trouble, as I always do, with the "who is/was better" debates. Different times, teams, situations, etc. make these difficult, same as GOAT comparisons, individual or team.
But, Keshon shows signs of being a truly great defensive player, if he continues to work and get better.
Greedy was indeed very, very good. Maybe better.
I do have trouble, as I always do, with the "who is/was better" debates. Different times, teams, situations, etc. make these difficult, same as GOAT comparisons, individual or team.
But, Keshon shows signs of being a truly great defensive player, if he continues to work and get better.
Joe is right, probably, if we look at steals, Greg was much better than Greedy. Greg still has, I think, 3 of the top four seasons for steals. 84, 85, and 106 steals in his three years.
Greedy's not even close. Had 55 one year. Only 2 years, so, career total wouldn't be near.
Still, it is hard to compare based on one stat, different teams, eras
Greedy's not even close. Had 55 one year. Only 2 years, so, career total wouldn't be near.
Still, it is hard to compare based on one stat, different teams, eras
Sports are funny that way with how the games (All four major sports) have changed.
Pitchers in baseball are striking guys out at a ridiculous rate. Are they so much better now? There are obvious Hall of Fame worthy pitchers in today's game (DeGrom, Scherzer, Kershaw) but baseball has changed. It's become analytic driven. In the 60's and 70s striking out was considered bad. Now, analytics say swing for the fences or try and take a walk, strike outs be damned.
NBA/College basketball, the proliferation of the three point shot coupled with quicker whistles (softer game now) makes it hard to compare eras. Great NBA defenders in the 80s would struggle to stay out of foul trouble in today's game. Flipside some if today's best shooters might struggle to get off their shot as easily back then.
Football, it's a passing QB driven game now. Hall of Fame receiver like John Stallworth's best year would be pretty mediocre by today's standard..
Hockey, way more fast skilled guys, less heavy forwards. Defenseman today drive way more offense than in the past.
Saw the title and I immediately knew what the comparison was going to be.
I call it a draw between the two of them. And outside of them, post 1991, there hasn't been a guard that changed the game defensively the way these two do. Not one.
Not Wink. Not JHawk. Not Brian Keefe.
I call it a draw between the two of them. And outside of them, post 1991, there hasn't been a guard that changed the game defensively the way these two do. Not one.
Not Wink. Not JHawk. Not Brian Keefe.
Bull, lots of truth there.
Would slightly disagree about officiating before the 80's.
In the 50's through the 70's, much less contact was allowed.
The Pistons of the 80's changed the game. It filtered down to the college level. Actually, I complained loudly. I love football, just not on the hardwood!
Anyhow, so true about changing games. Remember when pitchers threw complete games? And hitters Actually tried to make contact, not try to homer every time?
Check out a film of 70's football. Call the penalties.
Hockey had the well-earned nickname. 'Ice fighting."
Sorry, old fart observations.
Would slightly disagree about officiating before the 80's.
In the 50's through the 70's, much less contact was allowed.
The Pistons of the 80's changed the game. It filtered down to the college level. Actually, I complained loudly. I love football, just not on the hardwood!
Anyhow, so true about changing games. Remember when pitchers threw complete games? And hitters Actually tried to make contact, not try to homer every time?
Check out a film of 70's football. Call the penalties.
Hockey had the well-earned nickname. 'Ice fighting."
Sorry, old fart observations.
Nba great Ricky Sobers was the best I've seen. He was so strong and physical. People forget him but I remember sneaking in the old original gym and sitting in the balcony watching Tarks 1st team. Actual fights at practice with the guards going at it so hard.
I'm going to have to agree with Greg > Greedy and Greedy > Keshon. Greg was so cerebral and really knew how to force bad passes and when to jump into lanes. Greedy was probably quicker, but gambled more because of it and could get himself out of position that ended up hurting the team defense even when he didn't get burned.
I still say Augmon was the best I ever saw 1 on 1 defending, the only thing he really lacked was the size to guard real beefy post players but even then he could shut down 1-4 and shut down passing lanes on half of a halfcourt set.
My dad always said that RIcky Sobers was the best defender he ever saw at the college level. I never got to see him play in college though.
But as things stand right now I don't think Keshon is in the top 10, and given his foul percentages you'd realistically have to put him below guys like Marion, Marcus Banks, Dexter Boney, and Justin Hawkins with just one season in the books. He definitely has a shot to be a top 5 guy but he's not there yet.
Steals is a very weak way to judge a players’ defensive ability, imo. Do you know how many more steals Hunt and Anthony had because of Augmon’s length and deflections? Of course, all of them deflected a lot of passes and they fed off each other. To me, great defense is largely an eyeball thing if you understand the game. Stance, footwork, heavy challenges, as straight up, as help (Bird, for example, was fantastic with help, not as much as face up defending) … But steals and blocks are really the only recorded/published stat so people tend to look at those and estimate by those numbers. I think it goes far, far deeper than statistical numbers.
I wasn't basing it on steals, merely pointing out that Greg could shut a guy down and shut passing lanes down at the same time. Forcing bad passes or getting into passing lanes isn't necessarily about creating steals, either. It's stopping a play designed to go the high post and forcing the ball to circulate, or get fed into a place where a guy is going to have a hard time advancing the offense. Making the PG start the offense from deeper than he'd like, changing timing of screens and motions that depend on it being concise.
The modern stat nerds only raw numbers when it servers their purpose, mostly they evaluate using DRTG, DBPM, DWS, DWS/40 to help iron out a lot of those team based numbers, but most haven't gone back before the 2000s to tabulate that stuff since it requires big statistical analysis. Still flawed compared to the eye test, but the eye test also relies on you understanding the offense and defense you're seeing...and surprisingly few people do.
I didn't even use the word steal in my post, so I'm not sure exactly where you're coming from.
I think Greedy is a bit overrated in this discussion.
Still a very good defender, and a on ball steal specialist. But he would give up position a lot going for steals, miss and get burned. Not a great trait in a true defender.
Now he was quick enough to recover a lot, especially in the back court, but often not if we were in the half court.
Kehson has the makings to be a better overall defender, though he may not there quite yet.
Still a very good defender, and a on ball steal specialist. But he would give up position a lot going for steals, miss and get burned. Not a great trait in a true defender.
Now he was quick enough to recover a lot, especially in the back court, but often not if we were in the half court.
Kehson has the makings to be a better overall defender, though he may not there quite yet.
not accurate. Greedy had 108 steals at TCU and was on pace to break the NCAA record. averaged 6 steals per 40 minutes a GAME!
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The other defenders didn’t get burned left and right either. The defense completely breaks down if you gamble and miss. He gambled constantly. A really good defender picks their spots.
I mean, guys can hit 35 HR’s and have 200+ strikeouts. Consider me wholly unimpressed.
That said, yeah, Greedy was exciting because you knew he could force a TO and breakaway at any moment. Super quick and aggressive. But he was free wheeling out there.
I know the 'what if' scenario gets annoying but what if Greedy was on a Tark Rebel team? God that could've been awesome. I agree though, he had a terrible grasp of teamwork and was beyond petulant at times. Kind of like Marcus Banks. World of talent but piss poor attitude.
